6: The Lord decides how far...

Episode 6: Matthew reflects on being a small child during a civil war. He talks about his experience of 'living two lives' and how the rosary is still the prayer that sustains him.
Through this conversation, Matthew and Theresa discovered a shared devotion to Blessed Cyprian Tansi.

Find out more about Blessed Cyprian's time at Mount St Bernard Abbey.

A new episode, a different conversation, every Wednesday!
Email me: theresa@KindsofCatholic.co.uk
Facebook and X/Twitter Give me a follow @KindsofCatholic
Find the transcript: https://kindsofcatholic.buzzsprout.com

Music: Greenleaves from Audionautix.com

Transcript

You're listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro. My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of the ways we're living our faith today. Pope Francis has used the image of a caravan. A diverse group of people travelling together, on a sometimes chaotic journey together. That's an image that has helped to shape this podcast. I hope you'll feel encouraged and affirmed and may be challenged at times. I am too in these conversations.

Just before we listen to my conversation with today's guest, Matthew, I just wanted to share that Matthew begins by speaking about his experiences as a really small child in Nigeria at the time of the Nigerian Civil War, the Biafran War. Reflecting on what he has to say here, I can't help thinking about all those children and young families affected by war and armed conflict around the world today.

Thank you ever so much for joining me today, Matthew, for this conversation on All Kinds of Catholic. I wonder whether it might be interesting to start with you growing up then. I'm guessing that you've been a Catholic your whole life, but maybe that's not right. Where did your childhood start?

I was born into, I am born into a Catholic family, and I've always been a Catholic. I was born just '64, the Nigerian Civil War, 3 years, ended 1970. I was born 3 years before the start of the war. Right.

And did that have some impact on your childhood then, the fact that there was a civil war?

In a sense, because when I listened to the stories of how my parents survived the war, I could only imagine what it meant carrying a newborn child all through that. And then, I could also recall some of my childhood experiences about running from one village to the other for safety. So, coming out of the war, it was a survival challenge for my parents in particular, for everybody, really. And for me, I was almost like a spectator, you know, wondering what are people so stressed about? What is all this about? You know? And then soon as the war was ended and people settled back in into their homes, their villages. You know? So we we got back, and, I could remember my father and all his effort to make sure he went to Mass on Sunday. And then my uncles, I was just intrigued by how much effort people made to make sure they went to Mass. So that was my very first childhood- my first experience of what it is to be a Catholic. And I think that has got this indelible hold. And when I say hold, I mean a joyful hold, something I am grateful to God for. I go to Mass every day. I find myself doing that as if I'm being pushed. It's like if I didn't go, the day is not complete. The day's the day hasn't gone so well.
And when I look back, I can only imagine that I've seen this from my father, from my uncles. In an African setting, everybody's either your father or your uncle. In terms of being Catholic, it has always been the only thing I knew.

Okay. Okay.

I've only been inside another, an Anglican, church having arrived this country. So I know there was a time you dare not go to another church, or that you're gonna go and explain yourself to the parish priest. So when I came to this country and I went to an Anglican church, it felt a bit awkward, but pleasantly awkward. I said, okay. I've broken through this barrier. And I was wondering, so what is the difference? Because if you blindfolded me and I went into that church, I'd have thought I was in a Catholic church.

And when you were a child in Nigeria and recovering from the war or when the communities were recovering from the war, did you pray together as a family as well as going to church together? Was that something that was right there in the centre of the home?

Oh, that was another thing that I can't forget. In those days, well I lived in the urban city. Right? Because in a Nigerian context, you basically come from 2 different places. You have your village where you came from. That is where people get buried when they pass away, when they die. And then you go out to the city to look for career opportunity and fend for yourself, make a living. It's like my mother has asked me that question soetimes ' Where do people who live her go when they go to their village? I said, 'Everybody is in his or her village already. There's no going anywhere. Once you bought a house, the street becomes your village'. She couldn't also understand how that works.

So coming to your question about whether we pray together. In those days as a child, we had what we called block rosary. That is soon after Fatima, when Fatima message landed, it was for every street to have their own block rosary centre where all the Catholic children gathered between 6 and 6:30 to say the rosary. So if you're driving around from one street to the other, you hear different block rosary children gathered in one place saying the rosary.

And did the children lead the rosary themselves? Did the older ones lead?

No. The children did it. We did it ourselves. When I said the children, I was one of them. We came together. We said the rosary, and we tick our names off to know who didn't come.

Very serious.

We always had - we had, an adult who kinda organized this and everything. I could still remember the man. He was the most brilliant and enthusiastic person because he will go around, make sure the children, those who are too tender to get home themselves, that they got home. So that was how we prayed as children.

Now that you're a dad, Matthew, what have you brought into your, kind of, your own family from your childhood in terms of practicing your faith together?

You know, it's always been the rosary. Everybody in my family, 1 or 2 people actually are not into it so much. I have tried to set up a Zoom rosary group during the pandemic. I'd say it can be rowdy at times, but that's the part I enjoy, really, because it reminded me of how we did it those days when I was a kid.

So it's a prayer that's been with you your whole life.

Yeah. It has been. It has been. And when I went to Italy for for a study, there's a radio channel where you tune in to enjoying the rosary every day. But it was so fantastic that that you could hear a a harmony, a a symphony.

Yes. You can hear all the voices. When the pandemic first arrived and we had to kind of go online, I wouldn't have thought that praying together online would work until I was in situations where we were doing that because that's the only way we could meet. And actually, I think it works really well praying with a group of people online on Zoom. I was surprised, but it's grown on me.

Yeah. Then it was quite interesting, really. I could never imagine we'll find, I'll find myself, in a situation where I couldn't go to Mass for instance. That was the first shock for me. But for me, if it was a choice, to take a risk and receive communion. I think I will have taken the risk. You know what I mean? That's why when Father John opened and said people can come to Mass. And of course we did all the thing that we were told to do. The 2 can come to mass if they wanted. I couldn't be happier. I think I wasn't the first. I wasn't the first to get to Mass, but I think I was in the first list of people that actually went.

Yes. Yes. Once the safeguards are in place, I think that's right. It was wonderful to be able to go to Mass again. Of course. And that brings me on a little bit, Matthew. So how does being part of a parish support you in your faith now? What kind of things are important to you? You've mentioned going to Mass every day. And then, I mean, I notice at Mass that you've got responsibilities, roles that you take on to support the community. Tell us a bit about that. Where does that interest in being somebody that that supports the community? Where does that come from?

I don't know. It's just that I have a principle that if there is something to be done, I've struggle with 'I'm not getting involved. I'm not doing, I know it's not for me'. 'I'm sure there are people who -' 'Nobody has asked you to do it'. Or 'why don't you wait until somebody asks?' So I try to say no, it's not for me. But then when I look around and, for instance, it's like when people are leaving the church after Mass, there's this bottleneck at the door. I said, okay. So I put a table on the side. I take the hymn books of people while they are coming through. And then I found myself getting involved in things, and it doesn't seem to be a limit to it. I don't feel comfortable when I don't do it, if you know what I mean. If I know there's for instance, I just use an example about helping the flow out of the church after Mass. And sometimes I say, 'Matthew, it's not yours'. Right? I tell you it's like I'm sitting on broken bottles. Yeah. I know I read it in the bible. One of the prophets said, if I don't do- . It was Saint Paul. He said, if I chose to do this preaching, maybe I should be thanked for doing it. But for me, if I don't preach it, it's my, I'm on fire. Of course, I'm not putting myself with Paul, but I can relate to what he's saying?

Yeah. Yeah.

And sometimes it's appreciated and sometimes I find myself stepping on toes. You know? This is not how we do it. We don't do it. Oh, but it's, it was nice.

But I think, yeah, you're coming from a place where you can see a need though, and you're trying to meet that need, you know, with your thoughtfulness. If someone else, it's not that you're trying to make yourself important. I can see that because if somebody else is going to do it, well, that's great. But, no, I think that's just about being of service, isn't it, to the community?

It is. It is. I say to myself, I don't like being noticed. If people knew how much I wish I don't get noticed, blend in, come to Mass like every other person, and walk away like every other person. But then when, you know, you have to step up, there's no rota about it. Some people stepped in and -

Yes. That's the community working together, isn't it?

Exactly. And then I can only imagine that the parish priest feels a bit, a bit supported by, you know, people getting involved? And it's, it's just part of who I am.

Well, I think it's a good thing, isn't it? Because I think parishes need people to step forward and take some responsibilities even for quite small things. That makes a big difference for the whole community.

Yeah.

Is there anything, I'm just thinking now about, you know, the the neighborhood where you live, because I don't know what it was like where you were growing up, whether everybody in the community was a Catholic. Now there might be some other Catholic families in your neighborhood, but there might not be. And I wonder whether people, living around you, is there anything that they might see that tells them that you're a Catholic, that you go to church, that you pray, that you believe in God? Is there anything that your neighbours might know? Are you able to share your faith in any way or witness in any way?

I, for me, one of those who have lived what you may call 2 lives, lived their life, then living in another one because they lived their life in Nigeria. And then living in the Western world, you know, there are 2 different communities. Back home in Nigeria, for instance, growing up, I grew up in a almost exclusively Catholic community. If somebody wanted to burgle homes, they can wait for Sunday Mass to start, and they know nobody else is in the village because everybody has gone to Mass, if everybody's at the church on Sunday. And that was while I was growing up. Since it's changed up a bit, a little, but here  in the UK, for instance, of course, people live their individual lives. I know I'm friendly with my neighbors here. We can speak across the fence. We talk when people are getting to their cars or - but it doesn't go beyond that. On my door, we have couple of stickers that will say this is a Catholic home.

Okay. So there there is something there, for people to see on your door.

Yeah. Yeah. We've always got stickers that says this is a Catholic home, for instance, or you could have a cross or Our Lady.

I know when we did that pilgrimage to Mount Saint Bernard Abbey years ago, Matthew, I know that your mother was following your progress on the phone, and she was very excited about you making that pilgrimage.

Oh, you remembered. You remembered.

Yes, of course. Of course. Because it was such an amazing thing that someone in Nigeria knew what we were doing while we were doing it here. Does your mother keep in touch? You mentioned she asks about what the church looks like here. Does she keep in touch with how you're living your faith now, a long way from home?

My mother has visited here, came here for this holiday. And I took her to Mount Saint Bernard. Oh, it was an experience she has not not stopped talking about after, I mean, almost getting to 10 years now. And, she made a point of climbing the hill.

Yes. Calvary.

Yes. She went on the Calvary journey. And I like the way it's been set up because you keep walking, you keep climbing, you think it's all about the the rigours of climbing, and then you come out to the shrine.

Yes.

So she had been she did that, with everything. She was, my mother is over 80. So she was over 70 when she did that climb. And this is an experience she has never forgot. So when we were there at that Mass and I tuned her in, you know, it brought back all the memories of when she was there.

Yes. Yes. It's very real.

Yeah. It was.

For listeners, in the next part of our conversation, I asked Matthew about Blessed Cyprian Tansi. Blessed Cyprian Tansi was a Nigerian Catholic priest who came to Mount St. Bernard Abbey in 1950 with a view to finding out more about and experiencing monasticism and returning to Nigeria to found a monastery. Although monasticism began in North Africa, there were no monasteries in Nigeria at that time. Blessed Cyprian was at Mount St Bernard Abbey from 1950 until his death in 1964 at Leicester Royal Infirmary.

And when your mother visited, was the shrine in the church for Blessed Cyprian Tansi, Was that there when your mother visited?

And now you mentioned Tansi. Cyprian Tansi is my patron saint, my particular patron saint, for very good reasons. I was born on the day he died. 20th January '64. It's like my mother was in labour while Cyprian was drawing his last breath.

I didn't know that about you, Matthew, that connection, because I heard about Blessed Cyprian Tansi, you know, from church, and with Mount Saint Bernard Abbey being so near to us in our parish. And I've had a special devotion to him. I often share my prayers with him around my work because there's something about his story where he didn't manage to fulfill everything that he had planned when he came to Leicester, you know, to take monasticism back to Nigeria.

Oh, yeah.

And, you know, he died before it was complete. And so sometimes when I have struggles with work, I think, well, here's somebody who understands when things don't work out the way you thought they were going to.

Exactly.

So I have a a prayerful devotion myself to Blessed Cyprian Tansi. So, that's that's really lovely that we're speaking about him now.

And this is why, every 4th Saturday, we keep the novena to Blessed Cyprian. If I met Blessed Cyprian, I'm sure he feel better, you know, the issue of not achieving what he set out to. Of course, God decides, you know, how far your waves will break. But the point, I think he achieved everything he wanted to achieve in my own book. Because when I reflect on his life, you know, saints, every saint had his own, character, his own uniqueness. Some saints were martyred in the - .For Cypriea, he died what you may call an ordinary death in the sense that people get sick, people, you know, get old, people die.
Or also as, as Christians, that is even a gift. Jesus said, you should be happy and returning back to the Father. If we die and if we understand death in that sense, it's a joyful thing. When I when I think about Cyprian's life, so it's a very well-achieved parish priest. I don't, I can't, I couldn't imagine anybody being happier because I didn't live his life. I wasn't there. Right? But look listening to the stories of the success. And just to give you a little bit of a background story here. My father and my grandfather, when they went to Mass, because there were no priests, are just so few and far in between. If a Mass is coming to Leicester, for instance, people will start coming from Coventry, from Nottingham. Some of them will set off 3 days on a Wednesday in order to make it to the Mass on a Sunday.

Yes. It's so hard for us to imagine that, but yes.

When they went to go to confession if you will have to go to confession, you have to be there 2 days before the day of the Mass if you want to have a chance at going to confession. People stand in a queue for confession. So somebody will stay in the queue on a Friday and only makes it to confession on a Saturday. In the night, the rosary prayer, it was a joyful thing. You may have to do that about twice in a year. But it was a moment, an occasion people talk about. So this was the kind of situation Tansi was leading. And he got a point and said, I know I'm happy, I'm serving my people. But I see a deeper need. I'm just gonna lock myself away and pray. I struggle to understand that. Looking at myself, you're achieving mission, and all of a sudden he said, you have the humility, the sense of sacrifice, and it's a type of martyrdom for me. This is where I see him, to just say, listen. I've nothing. I think I'll be more useful if I go and pray for you. And he came to this country when there was no central heating. And I asked myself, did Cyprian come here with a proper clothes? What kind of shoe did he have? How was his first winter?

Yes. And I know if you've been to Mount Saint Bernard's Abbey on a cold day, it is a really cold exposed spot.

I want to believe his, the community, looked after him. I can't imagine. Nobody could do enough, considering this is an old man. But he's my patron saint, in so many ways apart from the way I can connect to him and his journey. And I have prayed for his intercession in so many things. And I have experienced God's intervention in those my prayers. You know, sometimes it's difficult to say convince anybody that a miracle has happened.

I agree with you, Matthew. I feel my prayers are answered when I share them with Blessed Cyprian, absolutely. Now your expression that the Lord decides how far your waves will break, that's going to stay with me. That's a wonderful expression. Thank you.

Yeah. Because at the end of the day, and God can be sometimes, I think God is having a big laugh. I enjoy those moments. I look at - I say, God, I feel you're laughing at me. You know? He says to me, Matthew, listen. You've done enough. Put yourself in the back. You know? So many things you want to do. So many good things you want to do. You say, why is it not working now? For instance, I dream of the rosary at start of Mass, a situation where everybody's coming to the rosary, you know, maybe because the way I grew up with it. Then God says, Matthew, nah. See, maybe, maybe not.

Yeah, of course. Okay. Listen, I think we're coming to the end, Matthew, I've really enjoyed speaking to you today. Thanks very much for, making the time to be here and chat. That's been great. And I think there's lots that listeners will be interested to hear about and that will resonate with some listeners too. So thank you very much.

Thank you so much. Thank you, Theresa.

Thanks so much for joining me today on All Kinds of A new episode of this podcast is released each week on Wednesdays. I do hope you'll tune in again.