11: Women in Moral Danger?

Episode 11: In a story told with striking honesty, Karen shares how her faith is more about doing than praying. She traces this back to her adoption journey, and the example of her parents. Hear too about her continuing struggle with the structure of the Church and the pace of change within it.

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Transcript

You're listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro. My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of the ways we're living our faith today. Pope Francis has used the image of a caravan. A diverse group of people travelling together, on a sometimes chaotic journey together. That's an image that has helped shape this podcast.

I hope you'll feel encouraged and affirmed and maybe challenged at times. I am too in these conversations.

So thanks ever so much for joining me, Karen. I'm really looking forward to our conversation today. I know we've got some really interesting stuff to talk about.

Great to be here. And, thank you for asking me to talk about areas of my life and my faith. That's really helpful for me as well.

Okay. Thank you. So, Karen, I know that some of your story starts at the very, very beginning of your life. So give us an idea of how you've come to be a Catholic and what happened right at the very beginning of your life.

So at the beginning of my life, I was adopted through the Catholic Children's Society and I went to parents who lived in Leicester who were obviously because of their position of being unable to have children were older parents. They had spent many years I suppose trying for a family and then they adopted first my older sister and then myself through the Catholic Children's Society. And they were always very open, I suppose I would say they were very liberal in their approach and and I was always, you know, there was always honesty about my adoption and where I came from and what they knew. But at that time in the Sixties, not much was shared with them about my heritage. They were as much in the dark as I was. And it was a difficult time I think for them because the Church had very sort of, almost like here's the baby on you go, and that was how it was. I was brought up into a family where my mother was a Catholic and then my father had become a Catholic after they were married. We went to Catholic school, we went to church just down the hill every Sunday, and we're part of a community.
My faith throughout that time was I, just was part of a community that I saw every day and I travelled to the Catholic school. Yeah, I just thought it was a normal, everybody did things, my mum was involved in the Church and I guess that's how I believe we should be involved. Throughout those years and maybe the years after, my faith was very much about action. Social justice and action had been really rooted at that time. As I said, my mum used to run like Brownies. She would get involved in the church fairs. I suppose she encouraged us. I began to realise probably when I moved to secondary school that actually there was a world outside Catholicism or the structure I had known, so I didn't go to a Catholic secondary school, my sister didn't either, and things that we were experiencing in the sort of outside world that we could do, the Catholic Church wasn't allowing us to do. My sister who was really eloquent at reading got chosen to read at Leicester Cathedral but couldn't read in her own church. Those sort of experiences begin to flavour your approach and your faith, but I I guess I stuck with it.

Okay. Tell us a bit about what has been a struggle for you in staying in the church.

Oh, I think staying in the church even to this day, the struggle is about pace and desire to involve people in change. The patriarchal voice is still very much the way forward. We don't do collaboration and engagement with the community. I think we've still got a long way to go.

Does the Synod process give you some hope around that?

I think the idea of the Synod and that approach does instill hope in me but there's a big but, the pace and the rate of change is still very slow. I suppose there's a risk that it will separate the church even further because we're not all embracing it all. It's a piecemeal approach, that some areas are approaching it in a collaborative way and I guess in the manner that it was set out and then others, you know, people that just have no idea that it's going on. I think also in recent years, one of the best things for me, probably, in my faith, was the pandemic, which sounds slightly odd, but I think that disrupted in a way for me, my pattern of practice in my faith. I suppose it disrupted the whole church. I then subsequently found greater spirituality and faith and reading of the bible elsewhere. Is there this defined plan in a sense that, you know, God has a plan for you and that these things happen for a reason, which I can't answer, but I suppose it just really challenges you to think about, was I just going along in a particular way in my faith, had I got into a pattern of it, or was it a good pattern?

That's really interesting, Karen, actually. Because we say, don't we, that God works through the processes, through what's happening in the world. And I think the word disrupt that you used there is really helpful, actually. It did disrupt all of us and make us kind of look at things differently and open up new possibilities, as you say, to new ways of being together and praying together. And then not being able to go to Mass, I think, gave us all an opportunity to sort of rethink where we sit. When I look at parishes now, I think we're still recovering in some ways how to be a community. There's different dynamics now somehow.

Thinking that through, I suppose most of my life has often been disrupted by things completely beyond my control. Being adopted, meant years later when I was an adult, so I must have been in my 20s, 30s, that I was approached to be involved in some research. And what they were looking at is the number of people that had gone into the health or care sector who had been adopted. And I guess I thought, yeah, you know, like this whole message about giving back, working with the vulnerable, where does that all come from? I guess I think all of those thoughts throughout my life have been there about you need to go and sort of, you need to be involved, you need to do these things. Even as a child, you know, like, I used to think about going and being a missionary, and I don't know where that came from, but it was there. It was almost like I wanted to be involved and maybe in a very active way, finding a vocation, that would go out there and and be with people and do things with people.

Having appreciated your own vulnerable start and how differently that could have gone, is that what you're saying, that that's what's made you identify with people who are vulnerable, and want to help?

I don't know. It's about my life, I guess, that that sort of view about, not being afraid of vulnerability or difference, That was always baked into my personality, I suppose, or my life. My parents weren't afraid to talk about that difference, so you know, they weren't afraid to acknowledge that I was adopted, which in the sixties/seventies was a big thing really because most, you know, I know some of my peers that were adopted at that time didn't know until they were really much older, and it came as quite a shock to a number of them. So my, you know, my parents were always very appreciative, supporting the Catholic Children's Society and recognising the need, you know, that the Church could do positive things in difficult situations. When I said I wanted to go into work with people with disabilities and Mental Health, my Dad's sort of saying, you're not tough enough, you know, aren't you? Yeah. And that maybe, that was this the thing was almost like, yeah, because they'd allowed me to be sort of vulnerable and express vulnerability, it was the way forward. And I think my faith helped me to realise those people on the margins and realise that's really important to me. Then for a number of years, obviously, I had children and worked with the school and the church, encouraged them in the faith, got involved in things. So I yeah, it was always quite central to my daily life.

More recently, I know that speaking of people on the margins, you do some great work with traveller communities. Is that something that, I know we've spoken before, Karen, and I have been struck by how you have reflected that it's not a one-way process, that actually this has done a great deal to nourish your own faith. Maybe you could tell us a bit about that.
Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, so a number of years ago when I stepped out of work for a while, the parish priest asked me to get involved with the diocesan chaplain and one of the Sisters who does that work. I agreed. I didn't really know what I was signing up to, I suppose, but decided I'd have a go at this, help out where I can. And actually, yeah, you're right, Theresa. Over the years, I probably have gained more because their faith is wow.... I think I feel quite sometimes, like, ashamed, I suppose. Well, not ashamed, but just their belief and power of prayer and their prayer is, and their going to shrines and holy places is, you know, really remarkable. And also the handing on of that culture within their families is really important.

It reminds me a little bit, Karen, of when I was working with people affected by imprisonment and their families. When I visited prisoners in chaplaincy situations, sometimes in the prison chapel, there's something very direct about people's faith and the way they express their faith. And the, like you say, the deep belief they had in their prayer, you know, there's something very immediate about people in those situations. It sounds a little bit like that in what you're describing there. It's hard to put it into words. But then I certainly could feel like my faith was a bit sort of airy fairy, whereas I'm meeting people for whom it is absolutely direct reality now.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's almost like I suppose their passion for it is very different to to my passion for it. Working particularly with some of the younger children, their joy and their knowledge, I suppose, that's the other thing, their knowledge about their faith and belief. I mean, you know, it's a very different, but it's a very, I don't know, it's just very joyous, Theresa, and I think what this sort of sometimes, what I have struggled with again, I think, through that period of time is recognising that the church isn't always Traveller-friendly. People have very different ways of treating the Travellers, and what I would call discriminatory ways of being with them, even though they are members of that parish. That's the difficulty, I think. Yeah, we should see people as people first and foremost. However, sometimes then having sort of separate events for their community is much more joyous because you feel they're just completely there and it's a big event and everybody comes. I just feel very privileged, I suppose, to sort of see that deep commitment and desire to want to be part of the church. And I guess what I've learned over the years is that you meet people where they're at. That's part of the problem, I think, my struggle with the Church. The Church has got very rigid about you have to do this at this point, particularly when my family were growing up. I got into that pattern of, we went on Sunday and we did this and then that was it maybe, you know, not that during the week it wasn't important, but it almost like you just focus on the weekend Mass, then you leave the Mass, and have you remembered anything you've heard in there? You know, do you go out and live it in your daily life? You know, that's the challenge, isn't it? Or the struggle for us moving forward, as far as how do we encourage people to think beyond that Sunday commitment.

And that's reminding me of something I was going to ask you because I know that you've had a long career in the NHS. And I was wondering if faith is something you were able to bring to work while you were in those different roles you had.

My mum was always very worried about putting down what your religion was, you know, whether you would be discriminated against. That's her understanding that sometimes even within the Church, she had been discriminated against, her fear of how do people see, particularly with the Troubles in Northern Ireland, how do people see Catholics in England? You know, in later life and during some of the times I worked in community psychiatry, and I knew there were people that were Catholics, you know, I could talk to them about what would be on offer, you know. Again, I think sometimes when I worked in an a ward environment thinking about people's spiritual needs, particularly if they were near the end of their life. I guess I've never been afraid of bringing up that a topic and talking to people about, do you want me to find you a chaplain? Or talking to people about whether they want to have Communion if they have not been able to go to Mass. Towards the end of my career, what was refreshing was in the last few years when I worked nationally in a national team and a very diverse community, which I loved, really enjoyed, some of the young people were much more open about talking about their faith and I then found that helped me talk about my faith as well. That's been really interesting that over the years, I think at times, it was difficult to express your faith in the Health Service. In latter years there has been much more openness and I could talk about faith and faith communities. With some of the people that I managed or mentored or supported, they would want to talk about that because that was part of their life. That was really a privilege about trying to show understanding of that. But I guess in latter years, I got to the point in my life when I began to realise that actually if I couldn't say it towards the end of my career, then who else would? That's call to action from your faith because if you see things that you think are wrong, you should be calling them out, and supporting particularly a lot of younger colleagues.

On a more personal level, Karen, are there particular prayers or bits of scripture that have been helpful to you through the years? Are there things you go back to that support your faith?

I suppose I've always said I'm not really good at praying. I do pray but, I don't have any particular prayers. In recent years, I suppose I've been able to read more and there's a little book with snippets from Pope Francis, which I really like. It talks about we need saints that wear trainers and hoodies, which I find absolutely right. You know, we do need that revolution in our faith. But I think the one thing that probably also stayed with me a lot is I did A-level Religious Studies, theology, and it was a very eclectic group, so the teacher was a Quaker, there was somebody who was Greek Orthodox, somebody who was Muslim, somebody who was Sikh, somebody that just one guy that just chose it because he didn't know what else to do. Then there was a couple of younger born-again Christians and myself as Catholic, and we read the Gospel of John. That's what we studied. So John is one of my favourite Gospels. I guess when I do Seven Steps now, that when it's that gospel, the imagery that comes through.

You do use the 7 Steps Scripture Sharing?

Yeah. I do that with a group of people about once a week, and that came out of COVID and the pandemic. That has been really a useful way of both having social time, but also sort of a social network, you know, reading the Gospel of that Sunday and then having time to reflect using the Seven Step method. I think sometimes it's interesting that when you read it and pick out the words or phrases that mean to something to you that other people are saying it, you know, as you're thinking it. So it's just a really good process. The early stage of pandemic doing Mass, online Mass, and being invited to put your intentions in the chat, your prayer intentions. I think that for me, you know, like, was quite revolutionary because actually I could ask, but I could also pray for other people. And I think that's the bit that I found so supportive. You know? I know it was probably there before, Theresa, that you could have asked somebody sort of just like, could you pray for this? But actually, you can physically do it and, like, put it down in words and then you know that people are doing that for you and you can equally reciprocate it. That's why I think, for me, the pandemic sort of really helped my faith. I guess, really helped me do more reading of the bible, do more reading of things that are, like the Pope's book and some of the writings each day and getting involved in prayer groups. The Traveller community are very good at using WhatsApp and social media to pray. That's something that they've done for years, before pandemic. For me, the Church, using the tools and techniques that are there and moving with the times, you know, even my family, although my children don't practice, at times they will come and ask, will you pray for somebody? My daughter said knowing somebody, you can go and say, can you pray for this person? Was something that maybe that they wouldn't do, but they knew somebody would do it for them. A lot of young people would, if we were able to tap into some more of that technology, share with them in that way, and show them that, you know, actually a lot of what they're doing is social justice and what the Catholic church teaches. I think they just practice their faith in a very different way.

There's something very prayerful about what they're doing in coming and asking somebody else to pray, isn't there? You know, they feel like they're not going to pray themselves, but there's a way in which they are communicating something about their belief in God and in the power of prayer, although they're somehow not having the confidence to just try and pray themselves.

Feeling of love and compassion and working with people was always there, and giving back to your community was always there. And that frustrates me sometimes about the Church. We get too hung up on you've got to do x, y, and zed, to jump through these hoops, or do this every so many days or whatever, and this structure. We lose then the joy of what Jesus Christ and what the gospels talk to us about, or what we should do. I wouldn't be without it. And maybe that's the challenge is like, how do you keep going when you can't see the pace of change? I remember one priest of saying to me, you should wake up in the morning, just ask God what he wants you to do today. And equally, another priest sort of talked to me about, when I talked about my frustrations: The church is like a family. We will all have different ways of approaching things. And maybe that's one of the things I've reflected on recently is maybe you have to go to the parts of it that you wouldn't necessarily sign up to, but to try and understand that perspective and be open to, this is how that person wants to express and practice their faith.

Some of that is what I'm doing with the pod actually, Karen. You know, partly one of the things that you've been talking about is just talking to people who think differently, but are still part of the Catholic Church. And also, I just get so much nourishment from my faith from being in conversations with people. I know that, you know, talking to other Catholic people has been so important to me in my life. Just as important as being at Mass and receiving the sacraments in their due time and all of that, and trying to live the gospel. Actually, the conversations with people and the kind of thinking through things that are not so clear. They're more difficult and finding little shoots and seeds to help each other. I think that's really, really important for our faith. And so I'm glad that you've expressed some of those things too.

I suppose to me, as I say, my being a Catholic was predetermined maybe months before I was born. I definitely was born in, my birth mother went to the Refuge for Women in Moral Danger, So that's what the Catholic organisation was at the time in the Sixties, and within days of being born I was baptised a Catholic. So in a mother and baby home, I think it was just like the priest came on a particular day and did every baby in there. The beginning was equally a challenge, and I think that's the thing for me, is like really understanding that all of those people were on the edge of society. That's probably why I've continued to work with people that have been on the edge of society because it's deep rooted. No, it is really important that the church does listen to those voices, and does work in a way that is compassionate and kind, and not so sort of authoritarian because I have been heavily involved with adoption panels and with organisations I suppose around adoption as an adult, but as an adult, that realises that that goes on every day. We have got like blended families and children that have gone through trauma, and all sorts of families we've got, and our Catholic schools and everywhere has to recognize that there isn't just one fixed approach anymore. We need to think about how we work with all of those families, how we bring people through, and that, well, you know, we engage them, and they feel part of the community in whichever way they want to.

Nowadays, we don't have Refuges for Women in Moral Danger, and so I think that's positive. But what is your feeling about people in those situations? Is there something that's less  obvious that still is discriminatory just because we haven't got those kinds of places with those names now, or is the situation much better

I think it's improved a long way. I think there's still a long way to go. I think it's this bit about seeing people where they are. Working with the Traveller community, that is what it's taught me. You just have to go with where that community is on that particular day, and if it doesn't work on that day, fine. And I think that's hard for the Church and how we do it in a compassionate way. People that are all around us are our community, not just the Catholic people in that community. We owe it to everybody that we work with them in a fair and open way, engage them. And I just think that if they see that you're willing to be open as a Church with them, reach out to them, then equally, they come right back to you. For me, I think my faith is probably more lived through doing than praying. Often, what people want, and I probably learned that in my career, is your time, and it's your time to be with them. That's what people value, and the fact that you will go and be with them. Often, we think doing something else, like maybe giving, donating money or whatever, that's what they want, actually, you know, your presence and the fact that you're going to sit with them. And, you know, I know sometimes with some older Travellers, that's really important, like somebody coming to see them, particularly somebody from the Church, spending time and sometimes when they're struggling with something, maybe there's something going on and they're not really sure about, you know, having that conversation. I suppose it is your compassion that you will give your time. That is how I probably make time for God by doing that.

Well, that is really interesting Karen. It might surprise you to know that, you know, I've been inspired by hearing your story today and although you describe yourself as not very good at prayer, I mean, you're reflecting on the scriptures every week with a small group, and the value you place on social action, I think that's so important as a response to the gospel. The time that you give to that work and how that has shaped your whole life, it's very inspiring to hear. Thanks so much for talking about those things today, and to talk about your adoption and the effect that's had on you. That's very deep sharing. I'm grateful that you've felt able to do that today, and I know listeners will appreciate that too.

Thank you.

Thanks so much for joining me on All Kinds of Catholic this time. I hope today's conversation has resonated with you. A new episode is released each Wednesday. Follow All Kinds of Catholic on the usual podcast platforms to be sure of not missing an episode.

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