18: Poor and in need of a Saviour

Episode 18: Mark shares how awareness of his own weaknesses fuels his deep commitment to God. He talks about being a Lay Dominican, leading worship, and taking action on climate change - in Vancouver.

Find out more
Mark's book
Laudato Si' Movement
Lay Dominicans 
Mark's worship workshop

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Transcript

You are listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro. My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of the ways, we're living our faith today. Pope Francis has used the image of a caravan. A diverse group of people travelling together. On a sometimes chaotic journey together. That's an image that has helped shape this podcast. I hope you'll feel encouraged and affirmed and maybe challenged at times. I am too in these conversations.

So joining me today is Mark, coming to us through the wonders of technology from Vancouver. So this is gonna be a really interesting conversation. Thanks for joining me, Mark. 

You're welcome. 

So I often start by asking people, were you brought up a Catholic? Were you born into a Catholic family? Or is it something that you've come to later?

Well, for me, I was brought up a Catholic. Yes. Both my parents are Catholic. My grandparents, we have Irish descent, well, a mix of English and Irish. But, yes, my faith is really based on this understanding of myself as being poor and in need of a Saviour. As a child, I was often aware of my inadequacies and weaknesses, so I think this is really what kept me in the faith. And then during my teenage years, my relationship with God deepened and became more intimate really through going to Mass, especially the experience of Holy Communion, just that silence that we have there. Yeah. So Christianity has always made logical sense to me, and I've never had any reason to break off my relationship with God. So I've never stopped going to church every Sunday throughout my life.

Okay. So you're not someone that went through a little bit of time away from the church as a teenager or a young adult. You've been faithful all through your life. 

It just made sense that way. When I look at Christianity, I I see it as being a religion for the poor and the needy. So I think when you recognise that you are poor and in need of a Saviour for whatever reason, I think that's this is why Christianity is so popular. It's the religion for everybody, whether you're rich or poor. But, we also need to recognise that we're poor. 

OK. And that's interesting. I think we'll probably come back to that a little bit as we go on. Let's just fast forward a little bit to how come you're in Vancouver in Canada. 

Yeah. So basically, I decided to move to Canada back in 2007. I had been thinking about immigrating to some other countries for, a while. I used to travel to Africa a lot and I thought about living in South Africa or Zimbabwe, thought about different places like Austria. I love mountains, so moving to a place that had mountains appealed to me. Then eventually I settled on Canada. I live in the province of British Columbia because of all the mountains we have here and the lakes, and we've also got the coastline. So it's such a beautiful place to live. As a family, we were always very outdoorsy. We used to go hiking a lot. Our parents are very outdoorsy, and we used to do a lot of hiking in the mountains in Cumbria growing up. So, yeah, I've always loved the outdoors and just, fancied a change of scene. So I moved to British Columbia in Canada, 2007.

For listeners, just before we started recording, we shared that I also like hiking in the mountains. I haven't been to Canada. I've only seen it on TV and it looks amazing. Tell us a bit about what does the church look like in Canada? Did you notice any differences on moving from England to Canada?

That's a good question. I think essentially things are very similar. Though there are a few characteristics, I think, of Vancouver especially in Canada, and Vancouver itself is actually different from the rest of Canada. First of all, Canada is a Christian country in in the sense that the most popular religion in Canada is Christianity. And then of all the denominations, Catholicism is the most popular.  We have a lot of immigrants like myself coming from all over the world. We have a huge Filipino population in Canada, and most of those are Catholics. And so we really do have a thriving community of Catholics here in Vancouver. It's not to say we don't have problems like in other parts of Western world, but things are sort of going steadily. I know in Quebec, they have a huge decline at the moment in people going to the priesthood and Catholicism in general, people not believing.  But I think here in Canada, we are pretty steady at the moment. Also just recently, we've seen a little bit of a trend for young people now taking more of an interest in the Catholic faith. I am involved in RCIA, which is the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults where we're preparing people for baptism as adults. We have noticed a little bit of a surge whereby younger people, like people in their early twenties, are starting to get interested in the faith, the Catholic faith. And I think it's because of there's just so much in the world that is untrue and a little bit questionable. I think a lot of people are being drawn to the Catholic church and just need something to believe in. So that's a trend we're seeing here, probably in other parts of the world, hopefully, too. 

Now that is interesting, Mark, because a couple of people that I've spoken to on the pod, younger people, they've been drawn to the church having not been Catholics or having not been practicing for some time. And some of them have spoken about it being a source of truth that has drawn them that they have found something there that they believe is true. Yes. And others, it's to do with, they see something in people who are Catholics that they feel is lacking in their own life and that draws them. So that's really interesting that you are seeing that in Canada too. One of the other things that we have here in England, and I'm interested in whether that's happening where you are, is that some of the young people coming to the church are actually very interested in Latin Mass and in a very formal looking church, which has surprised me. Is that something that also is happening in Canada? 

Yes. It is. We actually have regular Latin Masses at the Cathedral in Vancouver and also at a parish in Vancouver where they have regular Latin masses. They are very well attended. And I think people just have or just want this the sense of something otherworldly and something spiritual. Because I think every human being recognises that we are religious, we are spiritual. So people are looking for that, and they find it more, I think, in the Latin Mass where the service is in a different language. And there's a sense of mysticism. So, you know, having incense and bells and so on. I think it's important that you understand the Mass though. And so if you are attending a Mass in Latin, that you do understand what's going on. That is very interesting. We've almost gone through a curve, you know. Back in the sixties, people were sort of moving away from the Latin Mass, and they wanted just English Masses and they thought the Latin Mass was completely gone now and that's it. But it never actually went away. It's always been there and it's still with us today.

I'm still reflecting on it myself. It seems strange that it's something that nourishing people today. What about you, Mark? What nourishes your faith today? Where are you at?

I've always had this sense of truth, the desire for truth. I know you mentioned that earlier. People are really drawn to that. So that's something that has always appealed to me. So I'm involved, I'm actually a Lay Dominican, and one of the mottos of the Dominicans is veritas, which is Latin word for truth. So this is really what drew me to the Dominican order. I detest lies, and they just cause so much anguish for the liar himself and also for people they're lying to. They cause confusion. Yeah. So basically, that's what drew me to the Dominican Order.  We meet monthly. We have, 4 pillars. Our 4 pillars are, prayer, community life, apostolic work, and study. So that's one thing I'm drawn to, the Lay Dominicans. 

I think one of my guests was a young person who belonged to I don't know that it was Lay Dominicans now I think of it, but it was young people's Dominican group. And similarly, she was interested in truth. What does it look like then when you meet together? Do you have a time of prayer and reflection together? 

Yes. When we meet monthly, we have prayer together first, which is the morning prayer of the church and the Divine Office.  And then we always have a time of study. We have an ongoing formation. It might be biblical study. It could be the lives of the Dominican saints, and they are a real inspiration to us. Saint Dominic, Saint Catherine of Siena, Saint Rose of Lima. We have a time of fellowship and just community socialising together, which is really helpful because we have a similar spirituality and we want to support each other and encourage each other in that. I've been a Lay Dominican ever since 2008 and I really feel I get a lot from this. It's interesting actually. I felt this call to the Dominican order while I was still living in England back in 2008. And then when I immigrated to Canada, I was looking for a place to live and I found this this flat. It just so happened that my closest Catholic church was actually run by Dominican priests. So I really felt that God the Holy Spirit had a hand in that. 

No doubt. Being a Lay Dominican, is that something you do yourself? Is it something that the family are involved in?

It's just myself actually. My wife is not a Lay Dominican. So it's really a personal thing. Sometimes we do have married couples, but yeah, it's really an individual thing. You respond to what God is calling you to. We used to have what was called the Catholic Forum. We would have a monthly meeting where we would preach about some particular aspect of the Catholic faith and something a little bit more intellectually challenging. So we've had things like, okay, what's the conjunction between sin and sickness? Also talking about what happens when you die. That has been very exciting, doing those talks and they were very well attended.

OK. You've written a book recently. Tell us a bit about what the book is about then. I think listeners will be interested in this topic. 

Yes. This came about through my work in catechism, in RCIA. I was also doing a lot of discussions online with many Protestants actually. And I found that just explaining purgatory had some interesting connotations. So I decided just to write this in a book. So the book is on purgatory. It's really appealing to Protestants. They are my target audience, if you like. And so what I've done is just included biblical references, nothing else. So there's no reference to church fathers or anybody else who has, you know, written about, purgatory because this is what Protestants are asking for. They want a clear explanation of where is purgatory in the Bible. So I have responded to that need. It's maybe unique actually. I don't know of any other book that has come out that has purely focused on the Bible and its explanation of purgatory. 

Well, that is interesting because I would have thought that you would need to call on church tradition to talk about purgatory.

What I did is I just went to the Bible itself. I actually have a Greek concordance of the Bible. And one of the big confusions is the use of the word hell. And hell actually very commonly refers to two distinct places, Hades, which is the Greek word for the place of the dead, also known as the underworld, and Gehenna, which is the place of eternal damnation, which is the destiny of the devil. These are very distinct different places and the Catholic church is very adamant that these are two distinct places. But for some reason, we use the word hell for both of those. But even in the Apostle's Creed, we say Jesus descended into hell, but we're not talking about eternal damnation. He just descended to the place of the dead. And so once you start reading the Bible in the Greek and you look at these things, you realise there is a lot in Jesus' teaching about purgatory, you know, the place of the dead. Catholics do not believe in two places of the dead, only one. And there's no like purgatory and Hades as being two different places. They're both one and the same place. So once we realise that, then we realize that even Jesus himself preached about purgatory. Especially, for example, we look at the story that he gave us of Lazarus and the rich man. And the rich man actually went to purgatory. He went to Hades. He is not in Gehenna. And so he was being purified in these flames for the sins of his life. And it's also interesting that, Abraham and Lazarus are also in Hades, but they were separated from the rich man. And that's purely an understanding that the Jews have always had, that there are these separations within Hades. And then we've also got Peter, you know, the gates of Hades will not prevail against the church. Here again, we're not talking about the devil and hell. We're talking about the underworld. The mission of the church is to pray for the souls in purgatory so that the gates will be open for them, so that they will be able to get into heaven.

So that is really interesting, Mark. I'll put a link to your book in the episode notes for people if they want to follow-up on that. It sounds like something worth pursuing actually,  just to help us all understand better terms that we perhaps use in a fairly casual way that's maybe obscured our understanding of what's actually being said by Jesus. Thank you. Is there a kind of liturgy that you prefer that nourishes your faith better?

Well, growing up, we were influenced by the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. My grandfather first introduced me to that in 1979. I suppose technically it's not really liturgy, but it is a form of prayer that has always appealed to me. My mother and all the family, we used to go together to charismatic events when we were teenagers. And then, in 1992, I started leading worship in a prayer meeting that I used to go to regularly.  I've been a worship leader ever since. And in fact, I've had this desire recently to pass what I have learned about being a worship leader onto the next generation. I've hosted a series of workshops on leading worship. One of them was actually recorded and can be found on YouTube. And I continue to lead charismatic worship even today in my local Catholic church.  And I just find it's a very liberating way of praying. It's really focusing on praise, which is really the highest form of prayer. Once you start focusing on that, then God's power is manifest in our lives. And many of the saints call us to praise, and closely related to this is contemplation. So in a Catholic charismatic prayer meeting, we are bringing people to a place of contemplation, this quiet contemplation of God in adoration. It's a very simple form of prayer that anybody can join in. And it's very ecumenical. Many Christians, whether they're Catholic or not, are involved in charismatic worship. In fact, it recently came from, it was the actual Protestants who revived it for us, especially to the Baptists. 

Sounds really good. I'm guessing that for you, being in the mountains, being in nature is something that brings you back to God? 

Yes. Yeah, definitely. I love to go into the mountains every weekend, hiking. So yes, that's where I find God, just in the beauty of creation. It really does draw us back to him. Again, it's coming back to this spiritual sense that everybody has. I certainly do find that in the mountains.

So have you been involved in work around care for creation, which has become so important now in, in recent, I was going to say years, but probably decades really. But particularly Pope Francis' work has brought this into the church more concretely.

Yeah. There was Laudato Si’ that he produced in 2015. I'm involved in the Laudato Si’ Movement.  Two years ago, I jointly started a Laudato Si' Circle, with a friend of mine in my local parish here. This was really born from anxiety because I would wake in the small hours of the night and just be anxious about climate change and questioning what are we humans doing, destroying our own habitat, which we need to survive as species, why are we doing this? But this anxiety was turned into fervent prayer, just begging God to have mercy on us for our foolishness and, you know, in destroying the beauty that he has created for us. Because we are called to be gardeners and to look after his creation, but we're polluting it. So I formed this Laudato Si' Circle. And it is great because we have these connections with the whole of the world. And so I have been to the advocacy movement meetings where I'm talking with somebody who is suffering from climate change in a very real way. They were suffering from flooding, but I was just talking one to one with this person. 

My first guest on the podcast was a man who is from the Philippines originally. And listeners who've listened to the episode might remember he was telling me that, he began by fundraising for situations back home when there was a typhoon. For example, climate change has increased the frequency of those weather disasters. And then he came into thinking about climate change from a position of faith, and he also is a Laudato Si’ animator. So it's really good to meet somebody else. And I guess I see this myself when I'm walking in the mountains in my own small way in Italy. I think you can see climate change in the mountains too, can't you? In terms of areas that used to have more snow on them, mountain lakes that used to have more water in. So I think although in the Western world, we're not so directly, you know, our actual lives are not as directly affected by climate change at the moment, I think we can still see the signs of it around us. 

Oh, yes. And we certainly see them here in, British Columbia. We get forest fires very regularly now, every year, it seems. And we've also had flooding. In fact, one village, called Lytton was actually wiped out from fires a few years back, so everybody had to be evacuated. So, yeah, it's really hitting us now literally on our doorsteps. And again, it comes back to this whole issue of truth and lies. I remember back in 1987, is when I had my eco conversion experience. I was watching a documentary on television and it was all about caring for the environment and what we're doing in our lives, the way we, how much we drive cars and, you know, using washing machines all the time and dryers and so on. So you know when you listen to something and you realise this is truth, the Holy Spirit is really telling me that this is truth, and that was kind of a wake up call for me, and I realised that what I was listening to was truth. But then, for so many years, all through the nineties and so on, I've had discussions with people. And it's been a little bit exasperating because I don't know if it's, the media, television, and so on, but we've just been hearing these messages that climate change is not real and we've had denial. And it was a real struggle to try to convince people that it's happening. And actually during this period, I was working for the Environment Agency of England and Wales and brushing shoulders with scientists. And we all knew that climate change was real, but it was such a struggle. But I think the turning point came with Pope Francis with Laudato Si’. Because I think ever since then, people have been quite readily talking about climate change and saying that it's real. Although we've had people, you know, scientists and so on saying that it's real for so many years, it's only when we had an international figure like Pope Francis actually say this that people have started to wake up to it. You kind of think, Okay, what does this have to do with the Pope? But it's precisely because Popes deal with the issue of morality and truth and justice. So, yeah. So I think I've seen a shift. I can now talk readily and openly about climate change and and not be dismissed. Yeah.

I think that's very insightful. And I was thinking while you're speaking, yeah, of course, it is a moral issue. And so somehow we have, as human beings, an amazing ability to simply ignore science. Science somehow doesn't reach us in the same way. But as a moral issue, I think Pope Francis raising it in that way and a spiritual issue. I think that has approached people from so many different ways of thinking about things that that are meaningful to us, so that it finally has got through more broadly, as you say. 

Yes. Exactly. 

So give us a flavour then of what the local work around the Laudato Si' movement looks like. Okay. So the Laudato Si' Circle that I'm involved with, we have actually established these on the four pillars of the Dominicans that I mentioned earlier. And so we meet together, we pray together, first of all, and then we have some sort of study. For example, we might study Laudato Si’ Itself from the Pope, and then we inspire each other. And then fourthly, we do action or apostolic work. So for the 1st year that we were together, we were mainly focusing on prayer and study. But then in the last year, we've really got involved in action. The major campaign we've been involved with is to do with the oil companies and this whole issue of truth and lies. Because more recently I've been researching and reading some books about climate change and found out that it was actually the oil companies who have actually been kind of deceiving people. They knew about climate change back in the '70s and how their products would actually cause it, exacerbate it, but they continued to market their products. So this kind of was an eye opener for me because I realised why people believed in climate denial. Once that had clicked, I realised that that was an area that we could focus on. I find it a little bit strange that we're continuing to burn fossil fuels when we have renewable energy. We have solar and wind and so on that we could readily use. And we I know we are starting to use it now, but we're still burning fossil fuels. So that was an area that I thought that we in our Laudato Si’ Circle could focus. And so we've been involved in this campaign called Sue Big Oil, which sounds very nasty, but it's not. It's really just about, coming back to the Environment Agency where we have this idea of polluter pays. That's one of the principles. So if you pollute, then you pay the cost to clean that up. And so we're applying the same principle. So the oil companies have marketed their products, They've lied and deceived the public. And so really they are responsible. I mean, we're all responsible, but I think they are more so through the marketing that they've done. And so basically what we're doing is what's being done in many other parts of the world. We're raising a class action lawsuit against the major oil companies so that they pay their fair share. We're not trying to close them down or anything. We're just trying to get what really is due. So that means that instead of taxpayers paying the full costs of climate change, things like, dealing with floods and wildfires and paying for these things, which all our city councils and county councils have to pay for, you know, we are asking the oil companies to pay their fair share. So that's been a great success. And so earlier this year, we went to Port Moody City Council, where I live, and they agreed to join a class action lawsuit. So it just shows that these things can actually make a difference. 

And that's quite sophisticated, isn't it? On the one hand, but also it's about justice. And I think it's absolutely sound in terms of following where Jesus leads us. 

Exactly.

Thank you. Then, is there a piece of the gospel that actually speaks to you that you come back to? Now, you mentioned your eco conversion there many years ago compared with the kind of ecological conversion that other people have gone through more recently in the church. But are there other parts of the gospel that have been very important in your faith? 

It's a good question. Yeah. Interestingly, there was the woman who was a sinner and she poured oil on Jesus' feet and wiped them away with her hair. Well, basically, that's a person I can identify with. It might seem a bit strange that a man would identify with a woman in the gospel but yeah. Why not? Because I think she really recognized her nothingness before Jesus. She was kissing his feet. Jesus said, you know, she has been forgiven much and that's why she loves so much. So again, that comes down to the essence of my faith. I realised my weaknesses and my inadequacies and that's what really draws me to love God. As I've mentioned, yeah, as a teenager, I just really started to really fall in love with God. Just wanted to live for him. I remember one of my Protestant friends actually when I was at university, he said, Have you given your life to Jesus? I kind of thought about that and said, Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. And so I thought about what he said for a while. And then I remember at the age of 19, I actually made that prayer, Jesus, I'm gonna give my life to you. And so that's what I did. And that's what I've done. 

That's absolutely beautiful. Thank you for sharing that, Mark. I think that's brought us full circle, in a way that is how you began the conversation about feeling poor before the Lord. I think you've crystallized that really well with how that gospel reading speaks to you. So thank you. 

You're welcome. 

I've really enjoyed this conversation. This has been really interesting. So thank you very much for making the time to speak, Mark. 

Thank you very much for having me.  It's been really good talking to you, Theresa. 

Thanks so much for joining me on All Kinds of Catholic this time. I hope today's conversation has resonated with you. A new episode is released each Wednesday. Follow All Kinds of Catholic on the usual podcast platforms to be sure of not missing an episode.

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