21: God took me right to that edge

Episode 21: Elizabeth shares about her decades-long music ministry and the precious memories it has given her, her contributions to the Catholic Women's League, and the support of that community during a horribly difficult time.

Find out more
Catholic Women's League
McCrimmons Publishing
World Union of Catholic Women's Organisations

A new episode, a different conversation, every Wednesday!
Email me: theresa@KindsofCatholic.co.uk
Facebook and X/Twitter Give me a follow @KindsofCatholic
Find the transcript: https://kindsofcatholic.buzzsprout.com

Music: Greenleaves from Audionautix.com

Transcript

You are listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro. My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of the ways, we're living our faith today. Pope Francis has used the image of a caravan. A diverse group of people travelling together. On a sometimes chaotic journey together. That's an image that has helped shape this podcast. I hope you'll feel encouraged and affirmed and maybe challenged at times. I am too in these conversations. 

So for listeners, this is going to be a really interesting episode. I have with me Elizabeth, who is going to talk about how she lives her faith in in the world today, and a little bit about the Catholic Women's League along the way too. So thank you for joining me, Elizabeth. 

Oh, you're welcome.

I often just say to people just to start then, are you someone who's always been a Catholic? Or or did you become a Catholic later in life? 

Oh, no. I was born a Catholic, and my parents were very strong Catholics. They were very involved in the church. My father was M.C. and always has been wherever we went. And, my mother was always busy. But funny enough, you mentioned that the Catholic Women's League, she wasn't a member for years. So that wasn't something that I was brought up with. But Catholicity, yes, definitely. 

And is it something that you've stayed with? Or is it something that you sort of drifted sometimes when people become teenagers or young adults, they have a little bit of time where they begin to question things very deeply.

No. My practice has been steady all the way. 

I know that you're involved in some ministry in the church all these years. Tell us a bit about the music ministry then. What does that look like for you?

Oh, well. Now if I go back to when I first did anything in the church. I lived in the parish next to the one that we're in, which was very foremost in the modern music in the church in the 1960’s. So they started a little children's choir, and I joined that. So I was about 7, and I met Joan McCrimmon who was publisher of McCrimmon Publishing. That is the start of my singing anything other than just being at Mass. And then we moved to the parish that I'm in now. I think my mother and I joined the choir when I was about 14 when they were looking for people to sing. When I was 17, the organist was moving, and my parish priest was saying – Oh, I said, well, I don't know. I can sort of cope on the piano. He said, Oh, if you can play the piano, you can play the organ. I'll show you. So that was it, really. I think I started that when I was, I can remember being 18. It was quite a long time ago. In fact, if you're looking for special occasions, actually, it's 50 years this Christmas that I joined that choir when I was 14, and I haven't missed a Christmas at church since. 

Oh, wow. 

It's a long time being involved, and I was very lucky to be involved with Joan. Met her again when I was about 19, and then we started to do a lot of recording of new music. Every time she had new music, new hymn books, we recorded demonstrations for that. And so it's quite nice. I've got a catalogue of my voice across the years, and I still do work for her. And in fact, I did a bit of work last week, just some editing.

I think I probably listened to recordings of you then, and some of those demonstrations through the years myself. 

Well, I know a parish priest friend of mine said, It was funny, this girl asked for this particular hymn, and he thought, well, no one will know it. She said, Oh, I've got a recording, he said, so we put it on and he went, Oh my gosh, it was you. Cos he knew obviously, when I'd recorded it and I'd recorded it then, I think, about 20 years previously.

I played the organ in a highly mediocre way myself and have done at church some of the time, and I've sung in very small choir situations. I actually think there's something really, really wonderful about participating in the Mass in that way. And I wonder how you have found that through the years. 

Well, yes, you don't realise it when you're doing it, I think, and sometimes and you really do enjoy it. But I also stood back about 4 years ago. So I sort of semi retired and handed it to somebody who's younger than me, but I'm still there. But on the odd occasion when I'm not involved, therefore, then I'm sitting downstairs. I don't like it. Makes me feel very weird, and it also makes me feel, you know, I remember things. I start sitting there not concentrating and remembering my mum and my auntie. We were all upstairs, and it's just a very odd feeling. So I prefer not to be there, maybe go somewhere else where the memories aren't there, you see? So as I say, you don't realise how much it's affecting you within as well as the service that you give and the enjoyment you get at that moment, but the amount of memories it gives you. 

You know, I sometimes think that people who aren't part of the music ministry perhaps don't realise that that's a live performance that you're having to pull out every time. And it can be stressful, but it's interesting that you're not sitting there downstairs thinking, oh, thank goodness. I haven't got that stress.

No. It's not so much missing the stress of organising it. I just missed the participation. To me, the most important thing in a hymn are the words, and I just I need to sing hymns so they make sense. I can't bear it if they just sung because the tune's nice.  I like you to sing a hymn in the way you would say something, and suddenly it means so much more. When you're sitting downstairs listening, it's just not good. Your whole brain is not switched onto the service. It switches somewhere else even though you're trying to keep bringing it back. 

I mean, I agree with you. I think there are some wonderful, wonderful words in hymns. Sometimes, if I've been at a prayer vigil that's long in the church, you know, and we're all sitting there quietly, you can look through the hymn book and find beautiful words to meditate on. 

Well, they're definitely, they're prayers before they're hymns, before they're songs. And that's the important thing. Even when I taught at school, I used to get the children to understand what we were singing in when we were singing some hymns, and for services because sometimes the words are difficult. So I wanted them to understand what they were singing about. 

And just because I'm interested, do you have a favourite hymn? 

No. I haven't. I've got lots of favourites. That's a tricky one. I've got some with very long memories of a way back as a little girl before I even joined a choir. I mean, I can remember being, I was born in Lancashire. We moved when I was 5, and I can remember there's two hymns from that. It's, O, Purest of Creatures and Faith of My Fathers, are hymns that I remember singing and standing in this church. That's all I can remember. 

Well, it was already there then. 

Well, see, my mum sang loudly. So when I grew up and started to sing loudly, my youngest brother hated every moment of it. He used to go ‘shhh’.

You need to use your gifts. That's it. 

Oh don't worry. I ignored him. 

Now, I also sometimes ask just outside of the church for a minute if people are able to share their faith at work. And obviously your work, some of it, it sounds like has been around singing and hymn singing. And so is there a way in which you feel your personal faith comes out in that work, or is that something that you try and not share particularly? 

I've never not shared it. I was a civil servant for 11 years, and my father and mother were civil servants. Of course, you'd go to Mass on a Holy Day. My dad wouldn't say where he was going. I was surprised. I said, Oh, I said I was going to church in my lunch hour. But then he was brought up, you know, a few more years back where you didn't discuss being a Catholic because it wasn't necessarily a good thing at work. It could be a prejudice against you in, I would say, the forties, fifties. So that's why he learned not to say anything. But I never stopped myself saying where I was going. And also I used to get Advent calendars every year, and I put one up in the office. And it was funny because then everybody would all want to be opening the doors and knowing what's going on. So I've never done that on purpose. It was just me, but I've never actually denied being a Catholic or kept it to myself.

 They're useful examples, aren't they, of how it can naturally come up in conversation at work? Tell us a bit about the Catholic Women's League then. I know that you have a full life within the Catholic Women's League.

I joined the Catholic Women's League with my mother when in our own parish, they had said they were gonna have to close. I thought, Oh, why are they closing? Because I don't know anything about them, which is typical and is what people still say now. Anyway, we joined just a group to support the priest, I suppose. It was the group that did the coffees and the teas. And then I was a member there, and it was very much parish based at that point for quite a while, and then I realised they had meetings in the diocese. Well, that was when I met my husband and my mother-in-law had been in the Catholic Women’s League forever. She wanted to go to the meetings at the Cathedral. And so my mother and I went and we took her and I thought there's more to this, you know, There's more to this than just being the small group in the church. And then they had their centenary in 2006 at Brighton. It was a huge event. We went to that and we put ourselves out to actually go. We'd never been to National before. My mother-in-law used to go to the National meetings, tell me about them. And I had little children as well, so I thought, I can't really be going off for a weekend and leaving them. But at that point, they were just old enough, 2006, to be thinking, well, I can leave them now. They could look after their father for me, you know? So we went off to that. The Branch President was looking for a Vice President, and I thought, oh, I don't know. Maybe I could do that. She asked me, would I do it? And I'd said I have to think about it. And then I thought about it. I thought, you know what? I think I'll say yes. I'll do it and see what happens. Because I'd already been the Chair in my section and the treasurer forever because once you're a treasurer, nobody ever wants you to stop being treasurer. So then I became the Branch President, which was very exciting. Then they said, you know, they were asking for nominations for the National President. And, of course, when I went to National in 2006, I couldn't go anonymously because it's not in my nature, really. But they'd asked us, me and my friend, singing partner, to do entertainment for their centenary. So we did the entertainment in front of 1500 people, but there, then I was seen, you see, so they knew who I was. But before I did that, somebody was stepping down as the promotions officer. So I did that and that was my taste of being in the national executive and being part of it. After that, does anybody want to be National President? And people asked me, would I do it? And I thought, okay, maybe I'll do that. Children have grown up at that point. I did the National Presidency for 3 years, and I've been on the National Executive for 10 years nearly altogether, and I've just come off. I've got another line of my life to go through at the minute. 

I think it's interesting how, like so many things in the church, you start with one step going to something and feeling you can do that. And then over time, and because of the experience that you gain doing that and the experiences in your life too that you gain, that you can bring to it, you take another step and another step. And before you know it, you're National President. 

This is the thing. If people ask me, I think, well, I'll think about it. I try not to necessarily just volunteer because that's so easy to do, for everything. So sometimes I wait a bit just to see if anybody really wants me to do it.

Meanwhile, although you're saying you're not on the Exec now, you're doing something daily for members. I think listeners would be really interested in that, and maybe it's something listeners can participate in. I don't know.

Oh, everybody can. Well, it started with the lockdown, you see, because being that I have been National President, I knew that a lot of our members are elderly and would be at home and alone. And then, of course, plenty of members were not elderly, but would also be alone because nobody was going anywhere. So on 20th March, and the Pope asked us all to pray at 8 o'clock in the evening. So I decided I'll go on the Facebook page. I'll go live on the page, and we'll sing a hymn, which I thought was lovely that was written by, Fran Leftley, who happened to live over the road for me. So I asked her first, is it okay if I sing this on the Facebook page live? Because I didn't wanna get into trouble for singing someone's – when I shouldn't have done. Didn't really know all the, copyright rules at that point. And I just did that. I went live on the page and sang this hymn. We said a prayer for peace and for those people who were suffering with the pandemic, and people could talk to me as I was doing it. I said, you know, You can say hello and say where you're from. Then I thought, you know what I might do? I might do that every morning because we none of us were going to Mass, and a lot of churches were going on Facebook and putting their Masses on, or their rosaries. And I thought, you know, I could do that every morning and just sing a hymn. So I did it from the next day, and loads of people watched it because, of course, in the lockdown, nobody had anything to do. So it got quite a following all over the world. We have ladies from Australia who still watch now. We've gone through all sorts of life moments with everybody. One of the ladies came on because she was having to be receiving treatment for cancer, and so we prayed with her through that. And she came through that, and then we prayed for her recovery. And at one point, I thought, should I just keep doing this? Do people really want this? And then I got a message from a lady who said to me, I've been watching this with my son, and he's an adult, and he has Down's. She said, I just want you to know he has very little speech, but because every time I finish, I'd say bye bye. And he would say goodbye to you. And I nearly cried, and I thought, I'll just keep going because it's just making a difference. All I'm doing is going downstairs to my piano and singing a hymn and switching it off.

I think you're being modest there, Elizabeth, because I have watched that Facebook recording or live stream that you do occasionally when I first heard about it. There's something really lovely about you just being yourself and bringing your gifts and meeting a need and seeing messages people are sending and just being there to greet everybody in the morning who needs that. Saying a prayer together, I think, is absolutely beautiful. And I think it's a huge commitment that you've maintained all these years now. 

Four and a half years. And as you say, one of the ladies during those lockdowns, she said to me when I first started, she said you're the only person who talks to me. She was in sheltered housing. They weren't allowed to go downstairs. They weren't allowed to leave their flats. She says, And you're the only one who says hello to me. And that's why I did it, to say good morning to people who wouldn't be able to talk. And then they can talk back to me because they message me. And, of course, I've got two cute dogs which entertain them. 

What I'd like to do with your permission is just put a link in the episode notes now to the Facebook page so that if people listening are interested, they can follow-up. 

Oh, yes. Because it's there too. People ask for prayer all the time. They send me a message on the page. Can you please pray for this? But I did have my own personal thing because I think in your messages to me, you said, Was there ever a time when I nearly doubted my faith? So I have to be careful because I'm sharing something, so I'll be a bit nonspecific. My little grandson was born in March. And within a week, he'd got a viral infection and was in Great Ormond Street and nearly died. And it was all very traumatic. For about 2 to 3 weeks, it was still traumatic. He stayed there 3 months. And there was one Sunday when I was I went to my daughter's house, easier because I could cry there, nobody could hear me.  And I just said, I can't believe you're doing this, Lord. I can't believe you'll do this to this child and this lovely couple, and I nearly lost the faith that he would put it right. And I knew I was, right at that minute. I thought, I I just don't know. This is such a huge ask. In fact, it's a bit emotional talking about it, but I'm sharing it. But on the hymns, everybody's so supportive. Everybody praying. Everybody wanting to know. I had to give out nonspecific updates because my daughter's a private person. This is her life. But when he went, she phoned me on Maundy Thursday morning to say we're going to Great Ormond Street. I said, Well, I'm asking for prayer now. I'd kept it to myself and a very small group of people, and I said, that's it now. I'm telling everyone now because I just thought we need the prayer.  And the prayer was across the world. And everywhere I go, people ask me, I don't know how many parishes were saying Masses because I play the organ for funerals and I'm going to different parishes and they're asking me. It just was wonderful, the amount of support from people. But it was a real moment and it was very odd because my very good friend said to me it was on a Sunday that this happened because that Sunday, we went up to Great Ormond Street, and my friend said she had to walk to church because I didn't give her a lift. And she said she was so angry with God walking all the way to church, and we were both the same on that day thinking this just can't happen. And, honest to God, that night, and it made me so annoyed at myself. That night, it all turned around and he went from that moment. I felt like God took me right to that edge and I said, I don't deserve Him to have done this. Why should I have had that fortune? But you do think, you know, it's not my right for everything to go right for me.

The emotions are strong, aren't they, at those times of course? 

I just could not believe that it got so, so bad, and He did do that for me. He didn't do it for me. He did it for that lovely baby who's an absolute joy. And I just even now, I think, oh, just I don't deserve that. Why do I deserve it as opposed to other people who don't get that fortune? They've had a different outcome. So that means that my life takes a different track and also makes me appreciate peace and tranquility, never getting cross with the parish priest because what's the point? 

Yes. 

There's no point in any of that anger and annoyance that sometimes goes with Catholic faith, doesn't it? 

Thank you for sharing that, Elizabeth. Thank you. I think there'll be something there that resonates with listeners. 

I hope this is helpful.

And it's reminded me that I was going to ask if there's any bible reading that speaks to you because we we've talked about hymns and you weren't able to pick a favourite. Maybe there's something from the scripture. 

I listen to the voice in my head, which is, sometimes we say is our link to the Lord. Well, the only one that does resonate with me is Martha and Mary and trying not to be, I don't know which one I like best out of those two. Because I know that one is trying to do her best and the other one is sitting and having a chat, and you think, which one am I? I'm not quite sure. But it is what it makes me think at times, Try to be not running around without seeing the wood for the trees. I think that that's the way I look at it. Yes.

And it's so hard, isn't it, in that reading where Jesus seems to rebuke Martha when you can see her just trying so hard. 

I know. I know. And yet, you see, that's what we do, don't we? Run around at church trying to do everything right. And yet, if you didn't do it at all, people would still be there. They’d still come and do what they do, and you're running around wearing yourself out. I've tried to make a balance between Martha and Mary. 

Yeah. That's a good idea. A balance between Martha and Mary. Just to revisit the Catholic Women's League, I know the Catholic Women's League would welcome new members. Is there anything you might say to encourage people to give it a bit of thought? 

I think in one way is, don't overthink why you'd like to come along. Sometimes I think people have a vision of what we do and what we are and what we like. So I think it's better to come along with the thought of, let's see what they're doing and see if I can do it, joining with them. We like to focus, within my section, we like to focus on having a social time together, and I think that really is, an outcome of the lockdowns because we've always done things together. But it started off with about 14 of us, go for lunch 3 times a year. And then we've also done things like support our local Children's Society. So they had a lovely Abba evening in July. We went to that. If you go along and see what is going on within your own Catholic music, it doesn't mean that you can't make suggestions at all because they're always looking for new ideas, but that's the very social side of it. And then as I say, there's a huge prayer side of it. We have a WhatsApp group. So the minute anybody wants prayer, they just put a note on there, don't have to say what it is, and you just know that they're there. And that is wonderful. And I like that immediacy of the WhatsApp group. Nationally, I think it's a good organization to be there because it can muster together a lot of women that can do something for people quite quickly. I mean, our National President at the moment, her project was to help prisoners and to pull together backpacks for them to be leaving prison with, and people were making them up in their own homes and getting them all together and sending them off. And also, we made little tiny crosses in a pocket. We all sat and sewed, some of us better than others. And, of course, they can find the funds to send for disaster funds straight away because there are funds to do that with. If you're a Catholic woman and you'd like to meet with other Catholic women, we all like the feeling of community and being together. That's what we all feel within our own section. We have fun together, tease each other, do all sorts of things at church. 

That's really great. And, of course, as you were saying, you know, when you do then find yourself trying to cope with a difficult life experience, it is wonderful to be part of a community, isn't it? 

Yes, it is.

And from the sidelines, I would recommend the Catholic Women's League. I did, come along to your conference, as you know, when I was working with Pact. I was just so struck by the amazing energy of a group of Catholic Women's League members together. My goodness, it's a wonderful thing. And good humour and prayerfulness as well is some, it's a wonderful richness for Catholic women.

There was one thing I should mention too that they're a member of the World Union of Catholic Women's Organizations as well. That takes you worldwide. So there are representatives that go along to the world meetings, which are every 3 years. They put forward resolutions for 2023 to 2027. And the one that the CWL asked if they could put forward was ‘Global food crisis, care of our common home, call to ecological conversion’.  So it's things like as it says here, WUCWO women must work to redress current global food crisis and restore equality of distribution and the protection of and respect for all women and children, encouraging a responsible consumption, reducing food loss and waste to address hunger globally. That is from the World Union of Catholic Women’s Organizations. So you then within your own parish, you could be saying, is there anything you're doing? They might be running a food bank. They might be helping the homeless. They might be helping women's refuge. They like to know if you are doing things and to take these on board, perhaps do something different. Just bringing this to women's awareness, you see. 

So women in the Catholic Women's League, as well as being part of a local community, they're part of something much bigger. 

Well, we always say that you're within the parish, you're within the diocese, nationally and internationally. You might not know you are in your own little tiny corner, but being a member, paying a subscription means that in a national way, they can then do other things because they have the funds to do these things. And that's your little contribution by being a little person in your parish. 

I'm glad that there's an opportunity for people to hear about that through listening to the pod episode, and I'll put links to World Union. It's been really good talking to you, Elizabeth.

Thank you. 

I think listeners will find lots to connect with there. And I think I'm really pleased that the Catholic Women's League have had a big-up on this episode. And it's wonderful to hear about your many, many decades of service in music ministry for the church across Brentwood. Thank you so much for making the time to talk.

Oh, you're very welcome. It's been a pleasure. 

Thanks so much for joining me on All Kinds of Catholic this time. I hope today's conversation has resonated with you. A new episode is released each Wednesday. Follow All Kinds of Catholic on the usual podcast platforms to be sure of not missing an episode. And follow our X/ Twitter and Facebook accounts, @KindsofCatholic. You can comment on episodes and be part of the dialogue there. You can also text me if you're listening to the podcast on your phone, although I won't be able to reply to those texts. Until the next time.