26: I was looking for something deeper

Episode 26: Sue shares how her search for something deeper has driven her work for justice and peace where the Lord has opened up many opportunities. It has also enabled her to find a spirituality that nourishes - and she explains how she became an Associate of the Sisters of St Joseph of Peace.

Find out more:
Congregation of the Sisters of St Joseph of Peace
CSJP Land Ethic
Richard Rohr's Center for Action and Contemplation

A new episode, a different conversation, every Wednesday!
Email me: theresa@KindsofCatholic.co.uk
Facebook and X/Twitter Give me a follow @KindsofCatholic
Find the transcript: https://kindsofcatholic.buzzsprout.com

Music: Greenleaves from Audionautix.com

Transcript

 You are listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro. My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of the ways, we're living our faith today. Pope Francis has used the image of a caravan. A diverse group of people travelling together. On a sometimes chaotic journey together. That's an image that has helped shape this podcast. I hope you'll feel encouraged and affirmed and maybe challenged at times. I am too in these conversations. 

Now, just before we get to this week's conversation, listeners, I just wanted to thank you for listening for what has now been half a year. This is Episode 26. And I also wanted to encourage you to get in touch if there are some questions you'd like me to ask people that I'm talking to. It'd be lovely to include questions that you'd like to hear the answers to. So if there's anything that comes to mind, do email me. Okay. Let's get on and hear today's conversation. 

So listeners, I'm delighted to be joined today by Sue, who's gonna talk about her faith journey. And just a spoiler alert, there's quite a lot of justice and peace work going to come out of today's conversation. So welcome, Sue. 

Thank you. 

Why don't we start, Sue, with how your journey into justice and peace as part of your faith began? 

Well, it's a sort of a circuitous route. I mean, I've always been in interested in justice and peace, but I probably wouldn't have called it justice and peace right at the beginning. I mean, we used to do things with, collecting money, all those sorts of things that were helping people. It's a sort of social justice in that respect. When I was at university, I became involved in the SVP visiting elderly people and just chatting with them, having a cup of tea. And then, of course, life takes a different turn. You just don't have the time for what you would like to do. So I sort of fast forward, I suppose, a bit, because having a family took a lot of time. But then in 1991, there was a thing in our parish about starting a justice and peace group. And I thought, oh, well, that's what I'm interested in, and I'll do that. And so I went along, and it was 3 parishes coming together, and there were actually quite a lot of people there. It was Rosemary Read who was there and telling us all about it. And it was also at the time of the first Gulf War, I think. I went to that, and then we decided we would continue. So we continued for a bit as a group, and then it dwindled, dropped down to 3 people. And that's been the sort of thing of justice and peace in Lincoln. It comes and it goes. Had about 4 groups and they've all - they start okay and then they -  and I think that's the whole thing. You've got to be somebody with stamina. But because of my involvement in the group, I then became involved more actively. My children were growing up, and I became part of the justice and peace commission. I did apply for the justice and peace worker’s job, but I didn't get it, which is a blessing really. People on the interviewing panel, one of them was from CAFOD. And that's the way I got involved in CAFOD as a campaign volunteer. 

But I just want to go back to, first of all, I'd like to just acknowledge the legacy of Rosemary Read. As a fellow member of the Nottingham Diocese, you know, she has been such a shining light and I know her loss is still felt greatly in the 

Absolutely, yeah.

..communities. So it's wonderful that we're talking today and that you're one of the people that's carrying forward…

Oh yes. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Rosemary, I don't think. 

And then the second thing I wanted to just pick up on was about what you were saying about stamina for justice and peace work. And I think I understand that and I think some of it might be - Well, I'm wondering what you think -  is it around some of the issues that we try and make a difference on are so huge that it's hard to feel a sense of progress in, in justice? And is that something, do you think, that burns people out? That people, you know, feel disheartened and move on to other things? What do you think the background to that is, to the fact that groups, you know, people, come and go?

I would say that the issues are so great and that you do feel overwhelmed sometimes. And as you say, you don't feel that you're making any progress. I can remember spending a lot of time with an ecumenical group, Would be it around the millennium, I think. And we've got this big thing going on, hopefully, and 4 people turned up. 

Yep. Been there and done that Sue. 

Yep. So I think you have to have stamina to carry on and not be put off. And your faith keeps you going because you know that something's going to come along. Just might take longer than you hoped it, but it will. 

Okay. Okay. Let's pick up your story again then, that you've found a way into being a campaign volunteer with CAFOD. What was that like? 

Well, that was, we used to go to various places in the diocese, and we'd do talks and things and involve people in campaigns. So that went on for a while. I only stopped, I suppose, because I then got a job as school chaplain. So that curtailed my volunteering during the day. 

That's interesting. Being a school chaplain is about sharing your faith with young people, children, young people, or walking alongside them in faith, I suppose.

Yeah. Walking alongside. Yeah. 

How did that work? How did your faith help you to do that?

Well, I suppose one of the things a chaplain does is listen. And a lot of people would come and say, is this so? Is this, you know, is this right? What does this mean? And you say, well, you know, I don't know all the answers. And they, you know, they'd think that I did. So I had to explain that, well, no. Nobody knows all the answers. You come to it gradually through your own experiences and your faith. 

And how long were you a school chaplain for?

I was a school chaplain for 8 years. 

And what age group were the - is it children, young people? 

Oh, right from nursery up to 18 years. There were 3 Catholic schools and then there was a 6th form college, and I used to go into there. 

And how did you find that? Did you find it nurturing for your own faith journey or very challenging or I'm thinking possibly exhausting? 

No. I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was really good to accompany children. And, of course, it meant that I got to go to the Briars every year with - that opened up to the children a lot, the young people accompanying young people.

So for listeners, the Briars is the Catholic Youth Centre for Nottingham Diocese. I was there myself a really, really long time ago when I was a Catholic young person in the diocese. That's right. There, like in many residential centres that the church has, there are young people ministering to younger people in those places, and it is a wonderful opportunity. So after you'd done your 8 years as a school chaplain, where did your faith journey lead you next, Sue?

Well, I have to say, I have to go back, really, because when I started at as a chaplain, the chaplain before me was a Sister of the Congregation of Saint Joseph of Peace, and I got to know the Sisters extremely well. I worked alongside them and at this point, well, not at this point, I was coming along in my faith journey, and I felt I wasn't being, how should I say it, fed, if you like, in my parish. So I don't think it's just my parish, but I found it was rather shallow. The only things that they did that was supposed to feed you, apart from the homilies, were Advent talks, Lent talks. I was looking for something deeper. So getting to know the Sisters, I found just talking to them, and their spirituality, was sort of drawing me in. And then I discovered that you could become an Associate of the Congregation. I started going down that route, if you like, and attending their assembly days for Associates. And I was being fed all this wonderful spirituality, and that fed me. And I've carried on with it.

And I'm guessing there's some overlap there with your wanting to do something in the area of justice and peace, which we've not really defined, but wanting to take action, wanting to make a better world, wanting to be part of building the Kingdom of God. That overlaps with the charism of the Sisters of Saint Joseph of Peace. Would that be right? 

Yeah. 

What kind of things in their spirituality then spoke to you? Are you able to narrow that down a bit for listeners? 

Well, they have a weekly peace prayer which is disseminated widely. Well, what happened was I became involved more directly, I suppose, in 2012. The congregation had an Experience, and called it an Experience, in London. And Sisters and Associates from the 3 regions - because the sisters are in America in the east and the west - and for all the congregation, in London. And we were going around various places. We went to the Jesuit Refugee Service, and we went to nature places. We went to the Catholic Worker place. We went through all the stuff that people are involved with in justice and peace and looked at what was happening there. And because of that, I got to go to the Chapter in America. And through that, I became involved in their land ethic group, which was working on a land ethic for the Congregation. So that took 3, 4 years to produce this booklet. 

Yeah. Now I remember the land ethic because I remember being at a justice and peace assembly somewhere, and it was being presented. And I remember picking up this booklet and just being amazed at how beautifully it described a kind of, before Pope Francis got to it, care for creation. You know, care for the land on which we live and the way we engage with creation around us. And so the way I remember it, the Order - and I hadn't realised you were involved in that, Sue. That's really fantastic to be speaking to you today. But the way I remember it, that you had done some work around thinking about how you as a religious order, you know, sisters and associates, would do your work in a way that supported creation and the land that you were responsible for. I mean, I think we think about it a bit more since Laudato Si’, don't we, as Catholic people? Yes. But, but you were really way ahead there with that land ethic. 

Well, it went back to the previous chapters when they'd had, they didn't call it the land ethic. It was care for creation and seeds of peace, I think. It's all there. The land ethic had 5 principles, and off the top of my head, I'm trying to think. But one of them was, you know, earth is sacred, that one - and everything follows on from that. But then it brings in intergenerational justice, biodiversity, and all the things that we look at these days. And we've been doing a bit more work on the land ethic, but we were just trying to unpack it a bit more. So we've been working on that over the last 2, 3 years to flesh it out.

Yeah. Because, obviously, we're all moving forward, aren't we, in understanding things better and better, and the Spirit is leading us to look at things differently all the time. So, of course, it needs further unpacking. 

Yes. I was working on one of the principles that is about peace. It's all in - if you've got poverty, you've got war, as war causes poverty, but poverty also causes war. So it's all there, but we just need to look at it in a different way. We haven't made the connections. We need to make all the connections and we haven't made them so far. Well some people have.

Yeah. And also making the connections back to the gospel, isn't it? That concern for justice and peace comes from the gospel.

Yeah. Exactly. It's how we treat people. We always go back to, and I'm trying to think what it is. Matthew 25, is it?  When you did this to me, well, when you did it to them, you did it to me. 

Yeah. I'll put a link if I can find the land ethic online, which I'm sure I will be able to. I'll put a link to it in the episode notes so people can have a good look. Because it's hard, isn't it, bringing all the words to mind here and now under pressure? But they're beautifully put in the documents. And also, you know, people might be interested in looking up the Sisters of St Joseph of Peace too. Okay. So you've become an Associate. Tell us a little bit about that process. I think it takes a while. 

It does. I'm trying to think how long it took, but I had to meet, I met with a Sister and an Associate. And we have a program, so you're looking at all, I suppose, part of the history of the Sisters and, their spirituality, their charism. And then, you go to their assemblies, as I've said, and, really, you're showing that you really want to be involved. I'm just trying to think how long it took. Couple of years? 

Is there a pattern of prayer that the Sisters take part in together? Do you join with that? 

Well, as I said there's the peace prayer on a Tuesday, which, everybody gets it, and we all say it on the Tuesday. So there's that. But if you go to - with the sisters, you know, if you stay with them - they do evening prayer and morning prayer. And of course, they have their own liturgies and things, which are great. 

They talk about the real world, don't they? I've seen the peace prayer, and it's about -  it's very tangible, isn't it, about, you know, particular places and situation.

Absolutely. I mean, at the moment, we've got a prayer for, because this is a super- election year. There's elections going on all over the world, and we've got a prayer for that. So you have the actual prayer for this time of elections, and then weekly, you have the prayer to link into an election 

That's happening now. Yeah. And how have you found it then for your own faith journey, Sue? How has it been becoming an Associate? 

Well, to be honest, if I hadn't found them, I don't know where I would be because there was as I said, there wasn't anything. So I have had to find things. I've been lucky, actually, with the Sisters. I found where I wanted to be. But the other thing that I found was, I was lucky enough to go on this thing, and I'm trying to think what it was called. It happened in 2000, and it was a diocesan thing. And it was held in Derby University. There were, I think, people from, well, all over the diocese, but I was sent as a parish rep. And, the main speaker was Richard Rohr. I thought, oh, this this is great. I got his books, and I've read his books, and I actually saw him again. He spoke to me because he spoke with authority. That's what I thought when I heard it. 

Thinking about Richard Rohr now, I know he wrote a lot of books and has been very influential. I'm just trying to think, what it is about his spirituality. Does he unpick the scriptures? Is that what seems authoritative?

Well, he does do that. Yep. He does do that. And you can listen to his homilies on the Center For Action and Contemplation, it is. Contemplation calls you to action. Action calls you to contemplation. 

So that's some links that he made, which speaks to people who are interested in justice and peace. We need to take action Yes. As well as prayer and reflection.

Yes. That's right. Yeah. And you need both. It's not, we don't live in a world of either/or, which we've made it, a dualistic world. We're in this where it's both/and. That's his thing. And I thought, yes. That's it.

So you've framed it, Sue, that, you know, you've worked hard to find these ways of looking at the world with the eyes of faith that speak to you. I'm thinking about it maybe that the Lord has led you to things that have spoken to you. Are you able to look back in your life and think, oh, here I can see where God was working. Here I can see where the Lord brought me to this. Or is that not how you look at the world? 

Well, I was just thinking how blessed I've been because through Cafod, I actually went - there was this invitation for parish volunteers to apply to go to see the work of Cafod. They were going to Africa, to Sri Lanka, to Brazil, and Thailand. So I thought I'll apply. Won't get anywhere. And I did. I got accepted, and I went for 3 weeks to Africa to see what Cafod was doing. And then we had to come back and tell people about it, basically. Write an account of what we'd done, where we'd been, what we'd seen, and how it was impacting on the people. I never really thought about going to Africa and what the thing would be like. I just thought it would be good to meet the people and, never thought about the things like, crocodiles, hippos, snakes. 

So where in Africa did you go? That sounds amazing. 

Well, we started off in Zimbabwe in Harare. We also went to see justice and peace group in there as part of the tour around. Then we went into Zambia, went to places on the Kariba dam. We ended up in Lusaka, and then and we went into the Copper Belt. But we could go back and say, this is what's Cafod is doing. You know, they've got all these projects. Some people are, their lives are made better by them. You know, and they told us that if you want to help us more, these are the things. This is what would help us. 

So you got kind of firsthand account from people themselves of what would be helpful and how people could get more involved. So you got into talking about your opportunity to go to Africa with Cafod as part of feeling so blessed, the way the Lord has worked in your life. Is there a bit more to that? 

I think, actually, your faith gives you opportunities to do things, and you can either take them or you can say, no thank you. So I've tried to take up opportunities when they have arisen, even though you never know where you go, where it's gonna lead you. 

Yeah. And at the same time, I think I can see that you're looking for opportunities to grow in your faith and to take action and, you know, live the gospel values that are important to you. I can see that the Lord is indeed offering you opportunities, but also you're looking for them and making the most of them.

Well, as I said, sometimes you have to because there's nothing that is helping you to develop. You know? So you've got to develop it yourself. Other people take other ways, I suppose. Not everybody needs to be fed in the same way, but it's just the way that I felt that I should be going. And to do that, you have to open yourself up. 

That's right, Sue. The podcast is all about talking to different Catholics. You know, I'm amazed myself despite, you would think, knowing this already, that people are so different in the things that they find nourishes their faith - with lots of things that are in common too. People are quite different in what really helps them in their faith journeys. So it's been great to talk to you about how justice and peace has meant a lot to you and where that has led you and how the Lord has supported you to find nourishment through others working in this area. So thanks so much for joining me today. 

Thank you. 

Thanks so much for joining me on All Kinds of Catholic this time. I hope today's conversation has resonated with you. A new episode is released each Wednesday. Follow All Kinds of Catholic on the usual podcast platforms. Rate and review to help others find it. And follow our X/ Twitter and Facebook accounts, @KindsofCatholic. You can comment on episodes and be part of the dialogue there. You can also text me if you're listening to the podcast on your phone, although I won't be able to reply to those texts. 

Until the next time.