28: Blessed that I was brought up a Catholic

Episode 28: Pat talks about growing up in Ireland, getting married on the shores of the Atlantic, and coming to England for work. Since the earliest days, when he wasn't allowed to be an altar server, he shares where his faith has fitted into his 93 years and how he feels age has strengthened it. 

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Transcript

 You're listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro. My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of the ways, we're living our faith today. Pope Francis has used the image of a caravan. A diverse group of people travelling together. On a sometimes chaotic journey together. That's an image that has helped to shape this podcast. I hope you'll feel encouraged and affirmed, and maybe challenged at times. I am too in these conversations. 

So for listeners, this is a really nice episode where I'm in person with Pat, who is what age are you now Pat? 

93.

I'm here with Pat who's 93. We're gonna talk about your faith journey and your life, Pat. 

Thank you.

So tell us, where were you born? I was born in County Donegal in Ireland.

And you remember what it was like in Donegal in those days?

Oh, I remember clearly what it was like. Yes. 

So tell us what was it like? 

The first thing I remember is the postman coming around telling us the war broke out. 

Oh, yeah.

That's something that stuck in my mind always. For some reason. I was 6, 7 years then at the time, mind you, I was.

Did you even know what that meant? 

Not not particularly. No. Not at all really. No. 

But it was serious? 

Listening to people and all that, like, I never even fully understood it really. It didn't -  then as the years went by then, I did understand it and was all told at school quite a bit about it. 

Right. And so what kind of work did your family do? Did you have a farm? Were you in the town? 

That's just a small town called Dungloe. A population about 2 - 3000, only just small. We just had a  - you wouldn't call it a farm - but my father grew a lot of his own stuff he did and, kept his own cows, hens and all that. We kept all that sort of stuff we did, those years. 

And did you go to church together as a family? 

All went to church together. That was the main thing always. Never never missed the church. Church was priority no matter what. And then as I grew up then, there are different things like the 1st Friday of every month, I remember making my First Holy Communion and my Confirmation. 

Right. And do you remember the priest that you had then in the church? 

Oh, yeah. Very well. Yes. One of the worrying things about it was there was a priest came to the school before, a week or two before that to give you a test, and that used to be a big worry on us. But thankfully, I was missed that day. I didn't have to answer any questions.

Well, I'm sure you'd have been fine. And so growing up then, Pat, was your faith important to you or was it just something that everybody did around you that you were just part of?

I think that was more the case really. I think it was. Yes.

It was the culture? 

It was the culture really more than anything. Yes. And the October devotions and stuff like that. It wasn't a fervent thing to us really. It was something you just, don't think. But other things like that, October devotions, I remember we used to meet afterwards and start playing.  That was one of the big things really. But the Sunday Mass was very very important. And after I made my First Communion like everybody done, you washed your mouth the night before and you didn't eat anything until after you come back from communion. And my mother was very, very strict about it. And you washed, you actually washed your mouth, before you went to bed. 

I haven't heard that before. 

You didn't? 

No.

Yeah. Yeah. And we did. We done it. 

That was your mother trying to get across to you that this was really important.

Exactly. Yes. And she always had little prayer books and different ones as we grew up and all that. Again, it didn't mean a lot to us really, looking back on it now. 

And did you pray together in the house?

Yes. Prayed together in the house. The rosary was always said in the house, especially as I grew up. Before we went out to any functions, dances or anything. There was the rosary to be said.

Oh. And then when you were coming to England, I sometimes think Irish people that I've met, being Irish and being Catholic is very kind of closely woven. And so I wonder how it felt coming to England. Did you feel like you were in danger of losing something? 

Not at all. No. No. Back in the days before I was married, I went over to Corby. And, I remember, one of the first things we done was find the Catholic church. Our Lady of Walsingham. I always remember it.  We were involved with that church very very closely. They had a football team in fact that I joined and that used to run different functions and all that. I think that kept you close to the church anyway. All that helped really. It'd be different if you didn't have those things maybe.

Some of it was about social activities, meeting people in a new place. Was your faith more important to you then than when you were a child?

I kept everything up. I did. Always went to confession fairly, you know, regular. Not as regular as when I was brought up, but I went fairly regular and would never never miss Mass. And then we always went to Mass on a holyday in England when I came over. Always. The place I was staying, she was an Irish lady. She helped a lot. She did, to be fair to her. She encouraged a lot and remembered us a lot of these things. 

Okay. She kept you on the straight and narrow. And then tell us about meeting your wife. 

Meeting my wife. That's a strange story that is. During Lent, there were no dances in Ireland. None at all.  And you daren’t go to them as far as my mother was concerned. Otherwise, you’d fall out with her. But that particular day anyway, I happened to be up in the town, something to do with the football. And I was coming down, I met this chap and he says to me, shall we go to this dance? There was a lady in an old hall she had out in the country, held the dance always for it during Lent. Had always done it and she was really criticised for it. Oh, no. I said I can't, I can't do it. So we're walking down, we're living this half mile from the town, and he kept asking me till I came down to my gate. I give in, to go down. And you know what? 

Is that where you met your wife?

Met her that night. At the dance in Lent? 

Yes. At the illegal dance. 

Oh, well, that's a solid start.

Yes. That's how I met her. I knew her about a year before I came over here and kept in touch with her. I knew then I wanted to marry her, between you and I. So, the rest is history. 

And could you imagine, was it important to you that she was a Catholic? I suppose in Ireland then, everybody was a Catholic, weren't they? You wouldn't meet somebody who wasn't Catholic maybe, would you?

I’d say where I was, there was about 8 families, non Catholics. 

Oh, they were? 

They had their own little church and all that. 

Did you get married in Ireland then?

I got married in Ireland. Yes. Got married in her parish. 

Yes. And you can remember that day, of course?

Oh, distinctly. Yes. I remember it well. Beautiful sunny morning. We were married in the church on the shores of the Atlantic. Practically on the shore. But I remember, we went to Lifford, and we got the train to Dublin. And so we landed in Dublin, there were 2 to 3 inches of snow in the ground. I always remember that.

Well, it was an auspicious time. 

The reason we came to England was - I had worked in England then a year, 2 years before that. These jobs I worked with had a lot of work, good work, and that's why I decided to come over because there was no work around Donegal then. You know, you'll be working 1 week and then you were off 10 weeks maybe or something like that. I came away for work reasons. 

And what work did you do, Pat? 

Plasterer. I'm a plasterer. 

Oh, a very good person to know. So you were here in, were you in Leicester then, or were you in Corby? When your wife came with you?

Oh, we came straight to Leicester. Came to a bed-sitting room in West Street near the prison there, it is. That was the area. I remember the first thing she found out was the church, which was Holy Cross.  She didn't like it; a bed sitting room wasn't her thing. No. She was quite unhappy about it really. She didn't like it because you had to share the kitchen. February March, we came here, and we bought a house in September.

Well, things looked up then. Well, tell us your wife's name, Pat. 

Brigid. Spelled it B R I G I D is how she spelled it.

Like Saint Brigid?

Yes. Mhmm. 

 Okay. So for you and Brigid, you were married in church, and you came to another country, and you had your family here.  And you brought them up as Catholic young people. 

Oh, yes.

That was important to you. 

That was very important. That was yes. Yep.

Can I just dig into that a little bit, Pat? Why was that important to you, do you think? What was it that made you so sure that's what you wanted to do and give that to your children? 

I think one of the reasons was at that time, I think, I felt religion was a lot really and in the walks of life really, I thought. I mean, I knew people who lost their religion and they went the wrong way as well. They did because of it. And a lot of stuff like that came, used to come, into our mind. I suppose, I think myself really it’s because we were brought up that way ourselves. 

Yes. 

We want to do the same thing, both of us. It's tough question that to ask. I think that could be one of the reasons really. We wanted them to do it as we done it. 

And I think there's something when it's so much who you are and who your family are and all the people you know, I think maybe putting it into words is not that easy.

 It's not, it's not that easy. No. It's not.

Do you have a sense when you're working or when you're even just sitting having a cup of tea, do you have a sense of God around you? 

Younger, I was, but I think that faded away then and it really -  but I always, sort of look forward to going to church on Sunday and, look forward very much as the children grew with their First Communion. That was very, very important to us and it was always a big item in our life each day, each one as they grew up, each one came of age and done that. 

So they're kind of milestones in the church? 

Yes. It did help them to keep their faith too. That's perhaps our thinking behind it. 

Yeah. And did you pray as a family with your children in the house? 

We prayed as a family with the children in the house. And we said the rosary sometimes, but that sort of faded away. But she always said prayers as they went into bed. The 2 boys in one room, and the girls, she would always go up and say them, and I,  sometimes, I would as well go up with her. We'd always say a prayer with them as they go into bed.

Did you feel that God was looking after your children? 

Well, we did. Yes. Yes. I think Brigid did more than I did probably. She was pretty strong in her faith alright. She was. As soon as Brigid got into bed, you would hear under her breath saying a prayer for a while and then she would say to me, Come on. Let's say it together.

Oh, that's very nice. 

It was nice. Yes. And she'd always whisper it herself first. I always remember that. You wouldn't know what she were saying even. 

Well, I wish we were able to talk to her about it now. 

As far as Mass in the church was concerned, that was always there anyway. Always stayed there with us. It did. Even now, I find it difficult to get out and I feel bad about it. I always manage it, like, I do feel a bit bad because I don't drive now, you see. 

Well, I was gonna ask you about, now that you're older, how does your faith fit into your life now? You still feel strongly that you want to -

Oh, yes.  Probably  stronger. Yes. I I would feel stronger. Yes. 

Do you?

I do. Yes. Definitely. Yeah. 

Is it something that's reassuring? Is it something that's kind of – 

I could answer that for you. I think it's because you're coming to the end. I know I'm coming to the end of the road. That's one of the reasons. Well, you don't tell people that, but it is one of the reasons, it is. Age did strengthen my faith. Still strengthened when I'm very young, probably not so much middle life. But now in later years, definitely strengthens me.

Right. And so what does that look like then? Would you go to Mass more if you were able? 

I would do now. Yes. 

And do you pray a little bit more yourself? 

Pray at going to bed always. Yes. I always do that. Some in the morning too sometimes, yes. And, like after Brigid passed away, I went to Mass every Saturday morning. In her memory. And every Sunday. And each time, I visited her grave, up till I couldn't do it. So all that, I think, all that helps our faith too. When she passed away, probably, yes. 

Yes. And I don't want to be morbid, but do you have some confidence that you'll be together? 

Oh, yes. Oh, definitely. Yes. If you listen to people and all that. Some people don't, they don't believe in that, you see. But it is hard for some of them to believe it. I think it is, alright. It is. Now my faith is stronger than it has been probably since I was growing up really, maybe. We done Mass always and confession, everything like, you know. I think other things that come into it. The belief is stronger than it had been in midlife for me anyway.

And that's interesting, isn't it? Because in some ways, it's more challenging as you get older and you know you're coming to the end of your life. Even at the age of 57, I sometimes think that, you know. You're gonna find out for sure, aren't you? 

You would, I’d say, yeah. I know. 

Yes. But in fact, lots of people who are becoming older, I think do feel more confident in their faith. 

Yeah. And you look back and I did lead a reasonable good holy life up to a point. Well, I did really. And I always think I've done very well. Probably really, I feel good about it. Yes. The sort of life I led. Religious wise. Even though sometimes probably I could have done a bit more as well, but probably in my younger days. 

But you feel you stayed faithful? 

Yes. That's right. Yes. 

And I was saying to you before, when you were younger, did you feel the presence of God around you? And you said you did when you were a child. And what about now? Do you feel the Lord looking on you kindly now? Do you feel the presence of God around you? 

Not as much as I should do probably. Just answering your question. 

Well, that's honest. 

But all of life that I think about, rather than that. If that makes sense or not, I don't know. 

You think of the life you've led?  And the things where your faith is fitted into that. 

Yeah. Yes. Mhmm. And then where I'm where I'm going, hopefully.  Rather than that presence of God. 

Well, that's interesting, Pat. I was wondering if you feel the presence of God, like, when you're in church rather than when you're -

Yes. Definitely. But I  mean day to day, I mean, like, sometimes you do, something silly happens, or something serious happens, then you start thinking, alright, but it's not there as much as probably should be. 

And do you feel, as well as feeling yourself that you've been faithful, do you feel that you've been blessed? Do you feel that the Lord has -

Oh, yes. Yeah. Definitely. Yes. Blessed that I was brought up a Catholic, I was always, yes. Very much so. Yeah. 

And in your family and -

Oh, yes. It's a great blessing really when you when you look at it, religion.

And then I know sometimes you go home to Ireland And how do you find it there now? Is it much changed? 

Oh dear. It’s sad really, religion. The younger people, that's my opinion. Incredible really when you look at it. What's caused it? Even the church, very big church there now is only half full it is, compared with when I grew up or when I used to live there. What, have they lost their faith completely? I can't understand it. My children's age group, it started there like, and each one seemed to get, the next one seemed to get worse it did. 

So you say you can't understand it. You've no top tips then for how we can bring people back to the church. You don't feel you've got some insight? 

I wouldn't like to start to mention, but it is sad really. 

Yes. It is sad when you can see, when your own life has been so rich because of having faith in it and you can look forward even at the age of 93 to the future because you feel, you know, some reassurance around your faith. And it feels like a long way back, doesn't it, to faith -

 Oh, yes. Yes. A long, long way back

  - for some of those people who've never known it. 

They blame this, they blame the priests, and all that sort of thing, you know. But I mean that's only an excuse in my opinion, frankly. Because we're sad alright about that already, but that's no excuse that you should leave your church because of priests that go wrong, is it?

Well, I think it's really difficult, isn't it? I know some people have been very wounded by all of those things. 

I know they have. Yes.

But at the same time, for me too,  it hasn't made me feel that I need to find a different church or no church. 

Yes. But if I did fall away, I didn't fall away, but if I did, there would no blaming the way the priests have actually been, all that, really, I don't think. 

No. You feel you've got some responsibility yourself? 

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Definitely have. Yeah. 

Well, now this might be a hard question, but let's see. I sometimes ask people if there's a little bit of the Bible that really means something to them that kinda sticks with them that they think of when they think of scripture. Is there a bit for you? 

Not the Bible, but the catechism. That we learned at school. Sticks with me still.

Okay. Which bit of that is that? 

It’s the Ten Commandments, I always think. Oh, yeah.

So you learned them well. 

I learned them well. The sad thing was, it's only in later years you fully understood it. You had it off by heart, to ask you a question, Yes. But you didn't flipping understand it at that age. You didn't. Do you understand me?

Oh, very well. Yes. I was taught also to learn the 10 commandments by heart and not really knowing, you know, what the words mean.

No. No. 

Did your catechism have that little bit that says, Who made you? God made me. Why did he make you? To know, love, and serve him? Did your catechism start like that, or did that come along later? 

That came along later I think alright. 

You were just straight in with the 10 commandments, were you? 

Yes. I would have loved to be an altar server. 

Would you?

But the fact that we were a half a mile away from the church, they wouldn't let me go forward to it. Because, like, with no cars or anything, you know, you had to walk and all that. They thought you wouldn’t do it. My teacher, Mrs Eddie, we called her, she put it to the parish priest. He said, No. We have a rule. After they're out to a certain distance. They wouldn't be fit to come here in wet weather and all that. 

Missed your chance just by the geography. Well, times are certainly different now because if a child was interested in being an altar server now, I think they'd have every encouragement. I hope so. This has been a really lovely conversation, Pat. Thanks so much. I think it'll be an episode that people will enjoy, that they'll enjoy hearing. 

Oh, there might be certain points there. Alright.

Yes. And the vigilant listener might have heard a dog walking around. So thank you for making the time. 

Thank you. 

Thanks so much for joining me on All Kinds of Catholic this time. I hope today's conversation has resonated with you. A new episode is released each Wednesday. Follow All Kinds of Catholic on the usual podcast platforms. Rate and review to help others find it. And follow our X/Twitter, and Facebook accounts, @KindsofCatholic.

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