30: To wait for that start of Midnight Mass

Episode 30: In this special Christmas episode, Jonathan shares how his faith journey has led him to church music. He explains how sacred music offers praise upwards and outwards and, he hopes, helps us all to pray.

This episode includes some of the beautiful Christmas music which Jonathan has produced.

O Come all Ye Faithful: The Choir of St George’s Cathedral, Norman Harper, Frederick Stocken, Copyright Archdiocese of Southwark 2019, used with permission.

In Splendoribus Sanctorum: The Choir of St George’s Cathedral, Jonathan Schranz, Alex Wilson, Albie Soriano, Copyright Archdiocese of Southwark 2024, used with permission.

O Magnum Mysterium: The Purcell Singers, Mark Ford, Jonathan Schranz, Copyright The Purcell Singers 2019, used with permission.

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Transcript

You're listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro. My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of the ways, we're living our faith today. Pope Francis has used the image of a caravan. A diverse group of people travelling together, on a sometimes chaotic journey together. That's an image that has helped shape this podcast.  I hope you'll feel encouraged and affirmed, and may be challenged at times. I am too in these conversations. 

Listeners, welcome to this Christmas episode of All Kinds of Catholic. You might be listening on Christmas Day or you might be listening at Christmas time. I'm being joined today by Jonathan Schranz, who is the director of music in the Archdiocese of Southwark. Before we get into my conversation with Jonathan, let's just hear from the choir at Saint George's Cathedral with a Christmas carol that Jonathan helped to produce. 

O Come All Ye Faithful The Choir of St George’s Cathedral, Norman Harper, Frederick Stocken, Copyright Archdiocese of Southwark 2019, used with permission

We've got a really interesting guest today in Jonathan from the Southwark Archdiocese. Welcome. 

Thank you. 

Well, thank you for joining us to talk about Christmas music and your life and your faith. So why don't we start with, were you born into a Catholic family and baptised as a baby? 

Yes. So my family comes from Malta. And so pretty much everyone from Malta is a cradle Catholic. So my parents came over to the UK. And, yeah, I was baptised Catholic, grew up in a Catholic church, playing the trumpet in my parish music group where, they'd let you in if you could play more than 3 notes. You were good enough to join the group, which was a mixed blessing because some of us were not very good. But they were very much of the mindset that young people should be seen and heard in the church and very much involved in what's going on. So we were all sort of clumped at the front playing. I kept on going there as a child. As a teenager, as I think many do, I think I lost a bit of interest in it. Perhaps struggling to see the relevance of a lot of faith, about the Catholic church, wasn't necessarily being explained to me in a way that I was understanding. There was no youth work at my church. But a friend took me along to his independent evangelical church down the road as a teenager. And so for a while, I was doing Sunday Mass at 9:30, followed by worship service at 11:30 there, which was, you know, a very different style, charismatic, long sermons, hands in the air worship. Very exciting, especially for a teenager who was struggling to connect with Mass. This was certainly ticking a box for me. And a church which had considerable resources as far as youth work goes. As a 6th former, I then started singing on the complete other end of the spectrum at Buckfast Abbey, which sort of decided to start a professional music tradition overnight. Started this amazing choir with all local professionals and then also decided to support young singers as well. So as teenagers, there were some of us who were there and being paid professionally to sing the Mass and to sing beautiful polyphony and chant, which is amazing. It showed me the beauty of high liturgy and solemn sacred music in the place that it was written. 

Did you dive in and learn how to sing there with that choir? 

So I went to a school with a with a very good music department. The music teacher at the school had been a lay clerk, so a professional singer, at Exeter Cathedral. And so he tried to bring a lot of what he'd learned there into his teaching in the school. So we were singing all sorts of quite complicated music as kids, which I now realise is sort of the exception as far as school music goes. But it was a very useful training. It was still very much at Buckast being thrown in at the deep end because trying to read Gregorian chant for the first time with all the squares and everything when no one's ever taught you how was certainly a learning curve.

We're gonna talk some more about music and you, but we have this plainchant recording that you've provided for today's episode. So just tell us a bit about that while we're talking about Gregorian chants. Tell us a bit about what we're gonna hear. 

This chant is In Splendoribus Sanctorum. It's the chant for communion at Midnight Mass. So it's the communion antiphon for Midnight Mass. In splendoribus sanctorum, ex utero, ante luciferum, genui te: Amid the splendours of the heavenly sanctuary, from the womb, before the morning star, I begot you.

In Splendoribus Sanctorum: The Choir of St George’s Cathedral, Jonathan Schranz, Alex Wilson, Albie Soriano, Copyright Archdiocese of Southwark 2024, used with permission

Beautiful. Just because you will know this, tell us a bit about chant in the church. 

So I think that what's amazing about some of the church documents is how explicit they are about what's good and what's not as far as music goes. And they lift up Gregorian chant as the pinnacle of all church music. It says the Gregorian chant is especially suited to the liturgy. All other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgy. And these are documents that came out of the 2nd Vatican Council. You think of the 2nd Vatican Council as the introduction of potentially more contemporary music into the church. But actually, what they're reinforcing is there's nothing better than chant. Everything else? Yes. And it has a place. But if you're gonna sing anything, you should really sing some chant to start with. 

You see, I think that is interesting. And I'm not sure every parish, every person listening in their parish will have heard chants very often. 

No. And I think people find it inaccessible in the way that it looks. Squares on the page, not really knowing what's going on. But, fundamentally, it's just a tune, isn't it? There's no harmony to it. I do a fair bit of work in running workshops on Gregorian chant, trying to show people how easy it is. But they will and, you know, people don't realise they are singing chant. When the priest goes, ‘The Lord be with you (sung)’, that's chant. And we all respond very easily, don't we? And there are little steps people can take to sort of introduce more and more. 

And I think it is something that everybody can do together, isn't it? I know we prepared in my parish some years ago. I was in a choir where we were preparing for an ordination. And we were like, we can't really do this, but we're going to try. And actually, it was amazing how it is actually quite straightforward to learn it and sing it, or some of it is. 

And there's various degrees of difficulty, aren't there, with anything like but as far as singing things that the congregation would join in with as well, there are very easy chants that can be picked up. I think that is how they’re designed, is to be memorable and singable.

So getting back to you and your faith life then, let's just fast forward a bit from singing at Buckfast to the role you're in now. Tell listeners a little bit more about that and how you came to be here. 

Yeah. So I went on to study music at university and then did a Master's in Choral Conducting. And so church music has been something I've wanted to work at for a while. Most people who work in church music come to it from the background of being an organist and you've learned to play the organ. And then you're the organist of the church, and eventually the Director of Music leaves and you step in and take his place. That wasn't it for me. My feet don't work as far as pedals go. I can't play the piano with my feet, sadly. So I had to find a different approach. So going in via singing and via conducting has been the way. And I've been at the cathedral since 2019. So when I started, I was cathedral Director of Music. So responsibility for the cathedral choirs. Sunday Mass. Yes. But also any of the major liturgies involving the Archbishop, really. Since last year, I'm now Diocesan Director of Music, and I'm also running our Diocesan School singing program. So I've ditched all other work. This is now my whole working life, which I'm loving. And it's a broad role. So it's, yes, it's still all the cathedral choirs, which are growing. But also, I've got a team now who work in 20 Catholic schools each week doing whole class sacred music. So teaching hymns, teaching Mass setting, psalms to full classes of children. So it's not, there's a bit of it, but it's not really running school choirs for the kids who can sing. It's very much doing sacred music for everyone in the school. And then off the back of that, giving them opportunities to come together as mass groups of kids, which is always very rewarding. 

And that sounds such good work. And so you did say to me before we began recording that for you, work and faith are kind of the same thing at the moment. What's nourishing for your faith then now that you're properly an adult and not a teenager? What's nourishing for your faith about the role that you're in? 

There are a few things, but I think the beauty that comes from perfectly lined up liturgical and musical action can't be beaten. When you have an offertory motet that ends perfectly as the altar is being censed and the people stand up and they're ready to go on and you've just absolutely nailed it. And it set the mood beautifully, and the whole thing is just lined up. It's just it's heaven meets earth, isn't it? It's perfection when it happens. Obviously, it's devastating when it doesn't, but we'll leave that to one side. So I think that's definitely part of it is that beauty that we're always striving for in sacred music, in the knowledge that in itself, that beauty is doing something both on its own. Even if there was no one else in the room, it would be doing something. It's offering praise upwards. But then simultaneously offering it outwards to the people. You know, not everything we sing as a choir is congregational. And so there are questions there about involvement and participation in what's going on. And, again, coming back to these Vatican documents about participation and an internal spiritual participation on the part of the people who are joining in with what we're doing, albeit with their mouths shut. The archbishop says an amazing thing. He sometimes is kind enough to thank us at the end of Mass. Thank you. Thank you to the choir. Thank you for helping us to pray, which I think sums it up really nicely. We're not doing things for them. We're doing things with them, and we're enabling that atmosphere that they're a part of and, yeah, helping them to pray. 

Yeah. I think that's great. I was thinking while you were describing the, what you're calling the beauty of sacred music, there's something about engaging the emotions and the senses. People don't need to know the Latin necessarily, but if you do, there's another level of richness there, what the words mean and the connections to the readings of the day and the liturgical season and all of that. But actually, there's something that just engages, without words, the emotions and senses, and draws us closer to God. 

Definitely. And I, I mean, the Mass in itself, you know, it's a whole five senses experience, isn't it? You've got the smell of the incense. Obviously, the taste as we receive the Eucharist. You've got the beauty of the church to look at. It's all there. You know? And, obviously, the sound is definitely gonna be a part. And on sort of almost primal level, you know, responding to that sound and what it's gonna do to people is fantastic. 

Sounds like that's something that motivates you to stay involved. What about your own prayer life? I feel like I've kinda jumped into this really, but do you have your own prayer life, or are you actually - your whole work life is prayer?

Yeah. I do. I think, it's difficult on a Sunday morning, certainly. It can be difficult to pray in Mass when you're responsible for 20 kids who are potentially chatting to each other or whatever and you're trying to police that sort of thing or focusing on what the next musical thing's gonna happen and how you're gonna, you know, conduct that in a way that leads to the best possible performance. So taking the time in the service itself can be quite difficult. On my own, in daily life, I've been trying to engage more. And particularly, the rosary has been a big thing for me in the last year. I think it probably started we did a little Diocesan pilgrimage to Walsingham. And just walking and praying as a group was amazing. And I've been trying to start the day. Admittedly, since having my second kid, it's been quite difficult to start the day quietly. But to start the day by praying the rosary has been amazing. And, actually, I now carry one in my coat pocket because I'm realising that you're not limited to 15 minutes on a Tuesday morning as when you can pray. And, also, what I've realised, and this was mind blowing to me but isn't to many, is that the 10 beads of the rosary, God gave us 10 fingers. Isn't it wonderful that even if you don't have one on you, you can still count? And so I had to Google this afterwards, and I was wondering whether this was appropriate or not. I think it was fine. I was in the dentist. I was having dental hygienist work done. It was pretty painful on the mouth. How was I gonna get through that? I went straight to the rosary. It was amazing. Numbed the pain and got me through it. And whether that's distracting the mind or something deeper, we can, you know, it can be up for debate there. But it served a purpose and drew me out of what was a fairly distressing situation. And so I'm trying to bring that into more of what I do in everyday life when I'm walking about rather than scrolling the phone, seeing whether I can do something a little bit more edifying. 

Okay. Well, I think people will connect with that. A number of guests find the rosary really helpful. It's interesting. From, from all generations of the church, I find people find the rosary useful. You're the first one that's found it useful in the dentist, but there may be other people out there. I was just thinking about, obviously, Christmas for someone so involved in church music must be an extremely busy time. Is there part of the Christmas liturgies that is your favourite bit, that you kind of look forward to, that you're working towards and really get something out of?

Yeah. We're always up against the wider cultural idea of Christmas as beginning on the 1st November. As soon as Halloween's over, Christmas begins. Right? And trying to hold on to that preparation of Advent can be quite difficult. And especially, you know, I do a lot of work with children, and kids in the Cathedral choir are absolutely hyped for Christmas. And while I'm not too much of a Scrooge in insisting that we can't mention it at all until Christmas Day, then we're still allowed to get excited, of course. I do try and get them to wait and to see that that start of Midnight Mass, that amazing first experience of Christmas for most of them, is really where the magic happens. We've stayed up. We've had a nap in the afternoon. We're back. We're ready. We've done our rehearsal. It's dark. The candles are lit. And then the bell rings. I let them say Merry Christmas to each other, and then we get on with our first hymn. So I think that for me is like that release of the buildup of preparation and expectation. Ding a ling. Merry Christmas. And away we go. And then you launch into your first carol and get on with it. And it's just beautiful and joyful from then on, isn't it? 

That's great. And I think people listening who've been to Mass this morning or, or at Midnight Mass last night, that will remind us of how we all feel, I think, at the Christmas Mass. There is something wonderful about it because of that time of preparation. And, like you say, there's a bit of suspense there, isn't there, for us as Christians, because we are surrounded by what some people think is Christmas in the supermarket, but now we are able to celebrate. I was thinking you might be a good person to talk about different kinds of music in church. Do you recognise the value of all of it? What are your thoughts about different kinds of music in church?

I think any music done well can have its place. Again, I think the church itself is quite specific about what it likes. Crucially, it says that it should be beautiful. It should be well crafted. It shouldn't take people's minds away from the divine and the beauty of what's going on. And so music that reminds us of stuff that isn't liturgical and beautiful in church, I think we have some questions over. However, yeah, I can see the beauty in all of it. And I think partly, as we were talking earlier about my sort of background, you know, I grew up with a parish music group that was doing Be Still For the Presence of the Lord and those sorts of hymns, which, you know, hold a special place in my heart as part of my childhood. People look at Be Still for the Presence and think of it as contemporary music. It's at least 40 years old, isn't it? Yeah. And so, actually, on the on the contemporary sides of worship music as well, can absolutely see the value in that. There's sometimes questions over where it fits liturgically in the Mass. In an extended worship service, in an adoration service that has singing, amazing. Finding contemporary songs that will really suit liturgical action and will be two and a half minutes the length of your offertory possession can be difficult. I mean, for me, sacred choral music and high choral music is absolutely what I love the most and what I think suits the Mass the best. And that beautiful polyphonic music and chant and even more, more contemporary classical music. 

Thank you. That's really helpful. I'm glad I asked about that. I think people will be interested in your thoughts there. I want to go back to the beauty that you mentioned. One of the things that I think is beautiful in a different way, for me, is when in my parish, the people providing the music are members of the parish who are, you know, working together. They've prepared and they're using their skills for the parish. There's something beautiful about that in a different way. Having members of the community be part of the music ministry and put their all into it. 

And it's an act of service, isn't it? It's giving your skills and giving your time generously to the rest of your congregation and using it to create that atmosphere of worship for them. No, it's a wonderful thing. In the cathedral, I guess, for us, that comes from the children in that they are local children who are drawn from the parish community and from local schools largely whose families are coming to Mass with them. For our adults, they're professionals. And I think that's for the versatility that we can offer. If you've got a funeral next week that needs this particular Mass setting, we can get professional singers to do that without batting an eyelid. But you're right. There is absolute beauty to be found in what's going on in parishes week by week, faithfully rehearsing, and giving their all when it comes to the liturgy. Absolutely. And part of my role as Diocesan Director of Music is to support that. Something we've been working on lately is the new lectionary. And because we've got new Psalms to deal with, that means, essentially, all of our old Psalms have gone in the bin because the words won't line up with the music, and a lot of work has to be done to make that work again. So we've been running training on new music that's being written and adapting old music to suit new words. A similar deal, I think, when the new translation of the Mass came in over a decade ago. 

Yeah. It created work for church musicians that would be unseen by many, but deeply appreciated. And the other thing I just wanted to say about the beauty element as well was, for me, sometimes the Mass, as well as being beautiful, I want something that addresses the world as it is and the injustices, the tragedies, the pain and suffering, in the world. And so, I mean, I think addressing that in music can be beautiful as well in a different way, but I just I don't know what I mean exactly, but there's something about this other worldliness of the kind of music lifting us up. I was concerned for a minute that it was too detached from people's reality, you know, and that we could come to Mass and it can be beautiful and then we have to go back out and just carry on with trying to get through the day for some people. I wonder how liturgical music addresses those kind of things for you. 

I think it has to come into the text that you're singing a lot of the time for me and finding that wider relevance that's in there. In recent times, we had the, Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem here for their investiture Mass. Because it was their 70th anniversary, we had Cardinal Pizzaballa, the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, here with us to celebrate. And the text set for the day for the Mass that we were singing included, Oh, pray for the peace of Jerusalem. And obviously, you think about what's going on in the wider world and actually to sing something like that and remind people that, you know, of, I guess, the history, but also the reality of what's going on at the moment and what has gone on for centuries. To express that through music and to offer a wish for peace in the presence of the guy there who's really doing the work on the ground to try and hold, to hold it all together was quite special. 

Yeah. That's fantastic. Thank you for sharing that. So I hope listeners will forgive me for taking some time to talk about music more broadly rather than really digging into you and your faith in as much detail as I might usually, Jonathan. You might be relieved. But, you know, I just think it's a really good opportunity for this Christmas episode to hear about the music from somebody who really knows. So would you finish the episode for us by introducing this final piece of music? What's this about?

Yes. So we're going to listen to O Magnum Mysterium by Morton Lauridsen. Lauridsen is a contemporary composer, very popular. The text is text from a Matin responsory for Christmas Day. O magnum mysterium et admirabile sacramentum, Ut animalia viderent Dominum natum, Jacentum in praesepio: O great mystery and wonderful sacrament, that animals should see the newborn Lord, lying in a manger. 

Fabulous. And let's just wish all our listeners a Happy Christmas. Thanks ever so much, Jonathan. 

Thank you. Pleasure. 

Thanks so much for listening everyone. 

O Magnum Mysterium: The Purcell Singers, Mark Ford, Jonathan Schranz, Copyright The Purcell Singers 2019, used with permission

Thanks so much for joining me on All Kinds of Catholic this time. I hope today's conversation has resonated with you. A new episode is released each Wednesday. Follow All Kinds of Catholic on the usual podcast platforms. Rate and review to help others find it. And follow our X, Twitter, and Facebook accounts @KindsofCatholic. You can comment on episodes and be part of the dialogue there. You can also text me if you're listening to the podcast on your phone, although I won't be able to reply to those texts.

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