31: Blessed are the Peacemakers

Episode 31: In this New Year episode, Sean explains how he feels there is a better world out there when he sees so many people striving for it. Much of his working life has been focussed on helping to make a more peaceful world because, 'If you're not standing up for justice and peace and righteousness then what's the point of being a Christian?'

We wish listeners a Happy and Peaceful New Year.

Find out more
Mayors for Peace
Nuclear Free Local Authorities
St Mary's a Hidden Gem

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Transcript

 You're listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro. My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of the ways we're living our faith today. Pope Francis has used the image of a caravan. A diverse group of people travelling together. On a sometimes chaotic journey together. That's an image that has helped to shape this podcast. I hope you'll feel encouraged and affirmed, and maybe challenged at times. I am too in these conversations. 

Listeners, thank you for joining this first episode of All Kinds of Catholic 2025. We look forward to a Jubilee year now and Pope Francis' theme, Pilgrims of Hope. In this episode, while Sean shares some of his faith journey with us, there's a focus on his work for peace because for the church, the 1st of January is World Peace Day. So welcome listeners. Today, I'm joined by Sean, who is in the Leeds diocese. He said to me before we began recording that his journey is roundabout one. So let's see where the conversation takes us. Hello, Sean. 

Hello, Theresa. 

Shall we start at the very beginning, Sean? Were you born into a Catholic family and brought up in the Catholic church? 

Yes. Very much a cradle Catholic. So I have an English mother and a Irish father. My dad comes from near where the book of Kells is from. That's the town of Kells in in County Meath, in Ireland, very much from a very strongly devout Catholic family. So when I was brought up, it was the whole trappings of Catholic school, being an altar boy, being a Catholic Cub Scout, essentially til I went to university and decided what I believed in really, in a way. It was a very powerful time, really. My dad was, you know, we had to go to Mass every Sunday. Whenever we were on a holiday, once we found where we were staying, usually the next port of call was where was the nearest Catholic church. So it's a very strong presence in my young life, and it was enjoyable. I was interested in it. I'm an inquisitive sort of person. I took it on board quite a lot. I'd often say later, like, quite a tribal thing. Playing football against the Anglican school will be a big deal. Playing against the other Catholic school in the town will be even bigger than derby. So being a Catholic was as much part of my identity, being Irish background with, Mancunian lilt to it. Parish priest, a fellow Man United supporter; nuns running the schools. The tribal Catholic life that many Catholics start from really was part of my life. 

Yes. I recognise a lot of that. Somehow, it's only when you move away from home because you're just swimming in the sea of Catholicism really as a child and a teenager, it's when you leave the home that you actually might begin to meet people who aren't Catholics at all. Yeah. It can be quite strange at first. Where were you brought up then? Was that in Manchester? 

Born and bred in North Manchester. I wasn't one of those who was traumatised by being a young Catholic. I really enjoyed it. I like going to Mass. 

You mentioned moving away from home at 18 to go to university. And did you wobble a little bit there in your faith? Or did you get straight on with finding where to go to Mass and finding other Catholic people and 

Well, that's interesting. I was quite a shy person at 18, like many kids are. Going to university was actually very traumatic at the beginning because I'd lived in a very sheltered background. So moving into a big city -  I went to Leeds University -  go to a big hall of residence. Being a shy person by nature was a traumatising beginning experience. And the first person I actually met was an evangelical Baptist who told me everything that I sort of believed in was a lot of nonsense, invited me to the Christian Union. But then I felt, actually, what I wanted to know was, what do I really believe in now. So, funnily enough, that challenge I’d got very quickly at the beginning, it was what I sort of wanted, really. I wanted to think, what is this I really believe? I can be an adult and think about it. Because I was desperately lonely, wanted to meet some like minded people. And there was all this hedonism in university that I'd never really seen. I didn't wanna go drinking. I didn't wanna go to clubs or owt like that. I was looking for people that were a little bit more like me. I also then met, who's still a good friend of mine, a Methodist, who said, oh, there’s this Christian Student Society, which is more discursive. So I joined that group. They were really looking at what they believe in; art and religion. It was very ecumenical. And straightaway, ecumenicalism was something I really liked. I straightaway thought, well, I don't think one church, the Catholic church, had all the answers. I was really interested in that. I wanted to hear what the other answers were. What was their backgrounds? Where did they come from? I found that actually really stimulating to see what did I want. Actually, that probably helped me an awful lot. It made me aware that I still loved being a Catholic. I like the sacramentalism of Catholicism. That's what I always come back to. And, also, it's a social element of being a Catholic that remains very important as well. That was the other thing that came across. The one thing that Catholic Society did do very well in Leeds, they did a barn dance. But then I also I found a nice church in Headingley. Then I went to the cathedral for quite a while in in Leeds. I sort o,f and this has always been the way I am now, really. I go in 2 different directions. I love a lot of the grandeur of Catholic churches and the sacramentalism and the music, almost like the more conservative side of Catholicism. But on a sort of ethical and on an emotional basis, I very much gravitate much more towards the ecumenical, liberal side of Catholicism, really. And I feel I'm a bit of both, really. I've always thought of a bit of a liberal traditionalist. I adore going to a Catholic church. I like the Mass. But I was never bothered about also going to an Anglican Communion or a Methodist Communion. You know, some of my best friends are Methodist pastors and Baptist ministers and so on. So I'm also quite a universalist in the true sense of Catholicism. I like to see what others think and say. I've always been interested in faith in general, really. I've visited synagogues and mosques and Hindu temples. It's always been a big part of me that faith really matters, but your faith is down very much to you, where you are and where you are in your journey. I believe very much in grey areas. Black and white isn't for me. I know there's always grey in in the world. The answers are not always easier. I don't believe in being dogmatic. I believe in listening as well.

Thank you, Sean. You’ve set the scene well for our conversation. I'd like to just move on to talking about your work because I know the kind of things you're speaking about there that matter to you, I think, show themselves in the work that you have chosen to do over the years. But I wanted to talk about the ecumenical side and connecting with the other faiths as well. I think there's something about seeing the contrast between what other people believe and what their practices are that helps you to see your own beliefs and practices a bit more clearly than when that's all you know. Seeing how other people are doing things and what other people think about things and the language other people use about their life and their faith, I think it helps you be more aware of where you are. It's interesting, isn't it? Because you might think it was going to make you feel a bit unclear, but I think it helps you to be clearer, actually. And I think you've kind of expressed that a little bit.

My current role in work is as a elections officer, where I have to be completely neutral. One of the great concerns I have is if you have a black and white way in the world, you see, you don't see where someone else's experience is in there. It's a nice comfort jacket you have, but you have a much more enriched life when you know what someone else is going through, where they come from. That's how I feel that engagement and that interest comes from in me, really. I want to understand where someone's come from, and I want to be challenged. Things have shifted and things have moved because I've been engaged with other people. I think it's good for a church that has that sort of engagement. I want to be somewhere where I can have a good conversation with people and understand much more what they're about and what I'm about. That's, to me, what Christianity is about, really. 

Thank you. And you've hinted there about your work, which I think has been a lot around local councils.

Yeah. Yes.

 So tell us about what kind of work you have been doing. And especially if there's something where you can see that the Lord has led you into some particular element of that, that would be interesting for listeners. 

I mean, I've just had 30 years in local government. And if you'd asked me that I'd do that in 30 years ago, I'd have to say absolutely no. I wanted to be an academic and teach politics, is what I wanted to do. I've always been interested in politics. I got into the local authority, first in Leeds and then in Manchester, by accident. You can say by accident, but I’d say maybe by design. I got offered a job in Leeds City Council, which was to promote their own peace policies. They were engaged in in some of the work around, nuclear weapons, nuclear power. They helped a charity that had brought children from the Belarus area, Chernobyl, have been affected by that. We had a huge US intelligence base just across border from Leeds. We had a forum to try to bring politicians together to discuss issues around it and could it become more accountable to the local people. And I was brought into this and having some vague knowledge about it in university, then asked to get involved in some of the projects and the meetings around that and then meeting councillors and NGO reps and so on that were really keen and interested in it. And it was like a duck to water for me because I thought, you know, you do a politics degree, you want to change the world. Suddenly, I do things where, in a very little way, it seemed like I was changing the world. 

Yeah. 

I then moved on into Manchester where I was the lead for 2 organisations. One was the UK and Ireland Nuclear-Free Local Authorities, and the other one was the Mayors for Peace Organisation, which was led by Hiroshima/Nagasaki, which Manchester City Council is the vice president of. And that got me involved in a lot of fascinating peace work, working with all the great big names in the peace world. Privileged to have met Bruce Kent, and I got involved in loads and loads and loads of big lectures. You know, we brought Patrick Stewart. We brought Senator George Mitchell. We brought Claire Short, Caroline Lucas, to do lectures. We did big controversial meetings bringing the members of the European Parliament together.  Conferences, ceremonial events for Hiroshima Day. One of the things I really used to enjoy doing in Leeds, we used to do an interfaith peace service every year as well, and quite a lot of the groups we were engaged with were people of faith. For me, very quickly, my job, while it was something I really enjoyed doing and I loved the political process, I absolutely adore talking with politicians and working with politicians. I never wanted to be a politician, but I was very happy to do the speeches and to do all the hard work for them and let them take the credits. I would engage with them behind the scenes. But while I was doing that, I also felt like I was doing something that’s just right and good. A more peaceful world is a better world. And it felt very much while I've done it, you know, putting my faith into action in a very practical way.

Let us just think about the peace work for a minute. I just want to hold that up to the light because I'm just so moved that people of Manchester in local government did work for peace and paid someone to do some work for peace. It is possible. It's unusual, isn't it? So how wonderful that you were the person doing that. That is great. It's lifting my heart to hear about it, especially as in 2025 now we'll be marking 80 years since the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And have we got rid of nuclear weapons? No. We have not. Despite those efforts, if only every city was paying someone to do some work around peace, that would be my view. I don't know what you think about that. But it sounds like, you know, politicians are there to be engaged with and that you did actually do a lot of work that can bear fruit, can't it? 

Yeah. I think so. I mean, working with Nuclear-Free Local Authorities, when that was first set off in the eighties, the radical eighties, when we were a huge, polarised world, which we seem to have got back to in a different way. Now, it was sort of a Labour project, but when I came into it really and took it on in 2008, it was very much a cross-party thing. As well as working with Labour, I'd worked with Lib Dems, moderate Conservatives, definitely SMP and Plaid Cymru and the Greens, and the part of the job took me to Ireland. So I used to work with all the Irish political parties as well. My Irish identity is also very much part of all this process. I used to love going to Dublin and Belfast and Newry and Enniskillen and places like this. They mean something to me as well in a different way. But in terms of promoting peace, it is great that cities do and many cities do. Mayors for Peace has eight a half thousand members around the world, and it has about 150 members in the UK and Ireland now. I think politicians, if you engage them, you know, and you give them the tools, they listen. They want to see things happen. The politicians I dealt with have always been very similar to me in wanting to see things done and see things change, see their community change, but also not just want to see that in their local little ward, but in their country and internationally. And there's always been that theme in councils that, yes, that they're the most obvious institutions at the local level, but they're also part of a national and an international community as well. The best parts of the job was always going to the UN meetings for meetings of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and then the Treaty for the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons. And we've got the Nobel Peace Ceremony. And I was at that ceremony 4 years ago when ICAN won the Nobel Peace Prize. And, you know, to be in Oslo City Hall to hear the words. One of the greatest privileges of my life has been engaging with all the hibakusha from Hiroshima and Nagasaki and nuclear test veterans from this country as well, and many people you know, children, that were affected by the Chernobyl issue and the Fukushima issue in in Japan. That's what it's about, really. It's about people to me. And to hear the stories and to work with people that dealt with such horrific things in their life and then to be able to try to work with them for a better world, I can't think of anything more privileged to do. That's been one of the greatest honours of my job in a way, but my life as well. It always makes me feel there is a better world out there because everyone wants to strive for it, whether they've got very distinct faith beliefs or just want to see a better world. 

Thank you. That is really, really interesting. And I'm moved by your commitment to that work over all those years. 

I moved on to climate change for a while because I feel that's, again, as a Catholic Christian, one of the biggest ethical and practical issues. While I did that, I found that a very much more different experience because I had to read all the policy reports saying how dreadful it could be in 30, 40 years' time. And then I looked at political action, what could be done in the time it is. And knowing the challenges of working in the political process, I actually found that really hard because I didn't think we can deliver as speedily as we want to because there is political processes and there is compromise and you do systemic change, which is really, really hard. I actually found that quite a challenging year. I now do climate change in a smaller way at a local level because I couldn't, it was too much to deal with at that national, global level. And then moved into elections where I'm involved in political process now, but in a much more neutral way. I support democracy now in a way, in a different way, again, putting my faith into action, making sure the elections are done fairly and sensibly, and we try to stop intimidation of candidates. I do a lot of also engagement with the communities that don't vote. We try to get into poorer parts of the community to work with ethnic groups, to work with faith groups, work with LGBT groups. And, again, my work still, I think, has a very ethical element to it. I want to do a job which makes a difference. Yes. I think that's what my faith has always been about. God wants me to make a difference. That's the talents he's given me, and I want to use them to my best ability to serve him in a practical way.

And that really comes across. And just to mention on the climate change, because people listening, some people will be quite active on climate change and interested in it. It is hard to hear how overwhelming it is, but that will not be news to people listening, I know. But it's made me wonder, we haven't really talked so far about your own prayer life and how that might have gone alongside the action that you've taken and the work that you're doing. Where does your prayer life fit into that?

I think it's very important. I've always tried to, I mean, I pray daily, morning and evening. Going to church remains something important to me. So quite often when I work in the city centre of Manchester, there's a wonderful church. Saint Mary's the Hidden Gem, that you could go for lunchtime Communion in, and that'd be great. I've also got, having challenges in life a few years ago, I've got a spiritual director or adviser or whatever you like to call that. We meet monthly to talk about my prayer life, talk about where I'm going in the direction of my life, and the challenges of life, where God is in all that. 

That's interesting, that finding challenges in life, you've gone to spiritual direction as the way to find a way through that. I think listeners will find that really interesting. For people who aren't used to this world of having a spiritual director, how does that work? How is that helping you? 

We meet monthly for an hour. I found it really, really helpful to structure my life through my prayer life, my faith life, really, because the church that I go to in the Leeds diocese is also one of the most open churches and a very thought-provoking church. We have our house groups. We set up a peace and justice group, and it sort of centred my life, really. But in terms of the spiritual direction, I felt at the time that I was going through some personal challenges, that I was struggling to figure out where God is in in that. And it really helps with that. I mean, on a personal level, my father, he's got advanced dementia now. So it's a tremendous challenge to deal with that. And it does create lots of different feelings and opinions in you of anger and frustration, of sadness. And so for me, having an opportunity to have someone you can talk to about those issues, and then how it engages with your faith, and how does it make you feel, and gives you advice of where to find prayer or scriptural reading and so on that you can reflect on is really, really helpful. It keeps me centred because I can be very much an intellectual Catholic. And also because I'm a cradle Catholic, I can recite prayers without even thinking about it. And actually, have I actually said anything? You know, have I actually thought through what the words are? Actually, I need that little bit of challenge. But I also, I'm a person that loves knowledge. I do the daily readings in those lovely booklets. I've usually got some sort of spiritual book - reading Thomas Merton's autobiography. I also feel I need to be constantly learning and striving to figure out. I think it's a challenge being a Catholic in the early 21st century because we're in a secular age now. And most people you can come into contact with, particularly with work, faith isn't really something that ever comes up. 

Thank you for sharing that. And I think at this particular time of year, it can be hard for people in different ways. And so I think people would be really interested to hear about how spiritual direction has helped you, you know, in the broadest sense in your life and your faith. I sometimes ask people if there's a little bit of scripture or the gospel that speaks to you. You're widely read. You might be struggling to pin it down. 

Very easy, actually. It's the Beatitudes, Blessed are the peacemakers. That's about,  you can't live in your cocoons. You've got to go out there and be part of the world. If you're not standing up for justice and peace and righteousness, then what's the point of being a Christian? 

That is completely fitting for you and the way you live your life. This has been a really interesting conversation. Thank you so much, Sean. You've shared very generously your thoughts and your experiences, and what your faith means to you, and where it has led you. So thank you very much. Blessed are the peacemakers. Thanks for making some time to talk.

Yeah. Thank you very much. It was a great pleasure to be asked. 

Thanks so much for joining me on All Kinds of Catholic this time. I hope today's conversation has resonated with you. A new episode is released each Wednesday. Follow All Kinds of Catholic on the usual podcast platforms. Rate and review to help others find it. And follow our X, Twitter and Facebook accounts @KindsofCatholic. You can comment on episodes and be part of the dialogue there. You can also text me if you're listening to the podcast on your phone, although I won't be able to reply to those texts. Until the next time.