40: Why God wanted me to be a deacon

Episode 40: Deacon Mark shares how he first connected with his faith as a young adult, seeking truth and core values to live by. On being invited to consider becoming a deacon, he worried that his autism diagnosis would be a 'deal-breaker' but has found purpose in advocating for Catholic people who have disabilities. 

Find out more at Deacon Mark's blog

Contact Deacon Mark about his work:  dcn.mark.paine@rcaob.org.uk

A new episode, a different conversation, every Wednesday!
Email me: theresa@KindsofCatholic.co.uk
Facebook, Instagram and X/Twitter Give me a follow @KindsofCatholic
Find the transcript: https://kindsofcatholic.buzzsprout.com

Music: Greenleaves from Audionautix.com

Transcript

 You're listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro. My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of the ways, we're living our faith today. Pope Francis has used the image of a caravan. A diverse group of people travelling together, on a sometimes chaotic journey together. That's an image that has helped to shape this podcast. I hope you'll feel encouraged and affirmed and maybe challenged at times. I am too in these conversations. 

Listeners, welcome to this conversation. I'm joined by Deacon Mark today. And when you listen to this episode, it might be Ash Wednesday or soon afterwards because that's what we're preparing for. So I'm interested to see where the Holy Spirit leads our conversation. Welcome, Deacon Mark. 

Thank you. 

I'd quite like to just dive into the middle, if that's alright, and see how you come to be a deacon. Did you feel called to this? Did you respond quickly or slowly?

It's been a bit of a journey. I, to be honest, had no wish, desire, initially to become a deacon. It's really the result of a pincer movement by my wife and my parish priest. My parish priest came round to our house and brought it up, and my wife sort of said, Oh, this is a great idea. It wasn't something I'd ever really thought about. And to be honest, when I went on the diaconal formation program at Oscott, I did feel a bit sort of odd one out because there were all these guys, you know, Oh, yeah. I've got this burning vocation to be a deacon. It all seemed full of fervour. And I was very much a case of, okay, some people have suggested that I I explore this. I'm gonna use the formation process to explore this. But I felt right at the start that I wouldn't make the cut, and I thought I'd be asked to go at some point. 

Did you? 

Yes. I did. I also thought that when it became apparent - and I've always been very open since my autism diagnosis - that I was autistic, that this would be seen as an impediment to me being able to exercise a diaconal ministry. 

So the order of those things was you already had an autism diagnosis before being put forward? 

Yes. And I was very worried that when certain things became apparent that that would be a deal breaker as it were. I spent all the time, including right up to ordination, and to be honest, even after it, questioning, is this the right thing? Is this actually what I should be doing? Because well, all sorts of reasons. I think, one, because of my autism, two, because of the accompanying guilt and shame that has come with that and the kind of limitations that has had on some of the things that I'm able to do, particularly in terms of liturgically. I am the world's worst liturgical person. I was never an altar boy, so I was the world's oldest trainee altar boy. And because of my autism and my dyspraxia, it can be quite fun on the sanctuary because I have to think about everything that I'm doing, and I think I probably drive the parish priest and the congregation mad. I'm just not very confident doing that. Reading the gospel and things - absolutely. I'll quite happily talk for England. And I've got a teacher voice, so, yes, I can project. I love all the one to one stuff. That's the thing I really enjoy, speaking to people and people coming up to me and then for some reason thinking I'm some sort of spiritual guru, which I most definitely am not. But a lot of the actual liturgical stuff, I'm not so good or confident at. 

That's very interesting, Deacon Mark because you're just smashing my stereotypes there about what someone with autism might feel more comfortable doing. You know, if I was thinking about it in advance, I was thinking that perhaps the pattern of the liturgy would be helpful, that actually you'd be comfortable with that, and actually meeting people and having to have a live conversation with somebody that you would be less comfortable with that, but it seems to be the other way around.

Yes. It is. I'm nothing if not eccentric. I don't fit that common paradigm of what you're saying. I am not Mr Spock style autism.  I don't crave order. I do like to know what's gonna happen. I like predictability, but, no, I much prefer human interaction one to one. I find social situations difficult because of the kind of sensory overload. But, no, the actual mechanical sort of aspect of doing things in sequence and things, that's actually what I find most difficult.

And then I was going to get a feel for your own faith then. Have you always been a Catholic? 

I was baptised as a Catholic, but for a variety of reasons, I never attended any Catholic schools, and it was not something that was really part of my life at all. I was aware that I'd been baptised as a Catholic. I was aware my grandmother, who was very, very typically devoutly Catholic Irish, who I still vividly remember Saturday afternoons and the picture of the Sacred Heart that used to always freak me out because the eyes seemed to follow me around the room. So I sort of had that kind of cultural Catholicism going on in the background, but it was only when I went to university and decided that, actually, I wanna explore this, that, you know, I genuinely became a Catholic. I was Confirmed when I was at university. I had my first Holy Communion when I was at university, and that was where, really, my faith was nurtured. So the imprint was there, I guess. I suppose I'm sort of halfway between a cradle and a convert Catholic.

What is it that was drawing you at university to explore it? Was it being away from home and feeling more isolated? Or 

No. No. Basically, I was just interested in this Catholicism thing that seemed to be sort of subliminally part of my background, my genetics. And also because I was looking for the truth. You know, I was that typical kind of 18, 19 year old presented with the rest of your life, and you've got to look at, you know, what do I believe? What are my core values? How do I make sense of this big crazy world that we're in? And I was looking at different things. I just found that I was attracted to Catholicism. When I went for the first time properly into a Catholic church, I felt instantly at home. I mean, I went to go and sit at the back, so obviously, you know, obviously a Catholic! I was drawn towards it. I can't even really explain why, but it just seemed right. It wasn't a case of, oh, I'm away from home I need to have some buddies. It was more a case of, you know, I was looking at different things. That seemed to click. 

Yeah. I think sometimes there aren't words for these things that come right from inside us.  What are the things that nourish your faith now that you're a proper adult? Before becoming a deacon, were you someone that would go to Mass during the week as well as on a Sunday?

As much as possible. Yeah.

So you enjoyed Mass?

Yes. I've always had a prayer life since began this crazy journey. And thank you for calling me a proper adult. It's the first time anyone's ever called me that. How do I nurture it? Well, in all sorts of ways. As I said, I'm very drawn to other people and one to one interactions. And actually, I find that one of the best ways that I connect with my faith is through my interactions with other people. I'm a great believer that the gospel and the Christian way of life is something that is lived, and it is something that is acted out and acted upon. You know, I'm not the most mystical person, although I say the rosary every night. I do the examen. I do find it hard to do the daily office. I do it, but I get my kind of faith kicks from what's going on around me. I find creation in and of itself, the natural world, revealing of glory in his creation. I just find that so inspiring. And every day, I just try to recognise that and kinda nurture that sense of awe and wonder and gratitude. It's really hard to say because a lot of this is, it's sort of instinctive. It's sort of what's going on in my head. I'm not a great person for being able to reel off 50,000,000 different parts of Canon Law or the second Vatican Council or anything like that. I've read people like Aquinas and and those sort of guys, but that's not really - what nurtures my faith is coming into contact with people. I really value the opportunities when I get them of being able to show compassion, to act in a Christ-like way, and also when people are being compassionate and Christlike to me. As I said, for me, Christianity is not a philosophical system or an ethical system or even a religion as such. It's a relationship with God, a relationship with Jesus Christ through the church and through the scriptures, and that is lived out in my everyday life, if that makes sense. 

That makes great sense. Thank you, Deacon Mark. I appreciate the struggle to find some words to put around how you are living your faith, and I think you've done that really, really well. 

I don't wanna give the impression that the formal things aren’t necessary for me. I mean, as I said, I do the rosary. I do the examen. I'm very attracted to Ignatian spirituality and to Franciscan spirituality. Saint Francis is a is a great hero of mine. He's my favourite saint. I mean, he was a deacon, and I like the fact that he would sort of act before he thought about things sometimes. And often, I do that. Again, maybe it's not the autistic stereotype, but I'm very much governed by my emotions, not so much by my kind of rational mind sometimes. So that kind of craziness appeals to me. And I love Brother Juniper as well. Brother Juniper must have been autistic. He was one of Francis's earliest followers. His behaviour was rather eccentric, but he was clearly an incredibly valued friend of Francis. Francis said, Oh, if you had so many more Brother Junipers. Also, Saint Peter. I like the fact that Christ chose this guy who made mistakes, often talked before he'd thought about what he was gonna do, frequently had to be rebuked by Jesus, but he was chosen to be the first leader of the church. I find that inspirational. Jesus was so counterintuitive in so many ways. I just love the fact that Saint Peter, he offers me hope. If someone like Peter can be chosen to be the first leader of the church, we've all got some hope that, you know, God can make some use of us somehow. 

It must be fine for you to be a deacon then. 

As I said, I still find it hard being a deacon. I'm not always absolutely confident about what I'm doing. I still find it very hard, the whole clerical thing. I'm not one for titles, and I understand that, actually it shouldn't be about me. And if people are addressing me as deacon, they need me to be a deacon. It can sometimes feel a bit strange. I'm not the model deacon. 

Now this is the Ash Wednesday episode, Ash Wednesday and the week of Ash Wednesday, so we should just talk about that a little bit. We're making this episode a couple of days in advance, but what will Ash Wednesday look like for you then? 

Well, I should be at school. I'm a teacher, a primary school teacher. What I love about Ash Wednesday, apart from the fact it's the beginning of the great season of Lent, is that it offers such a wonderful opportunity for Christian witness in the most basic way. I mean, it's interesting that you see a lot of videos now on YouTube and other places of Catholics proudly walking around with their ashes on their head because it provides such a wonderful opportunity to tell people why you've got ashes on your head. Most of the children at the school I work at aren't actually Catholics. I do deacon at the school. I have the great privilege of being able to deacon at Mass there. I will be assisting the chaplain on Ash Wednesday. Often Catholics and Christians generally, we don't have many things that we can actually explicitly show our faith through. And I think that Ash Wednesday, with that very visible marker of the ashes, not only about what it reminds us of and the fact that it's starting the penitential season of Lent, it offers a chance for witness.

I think you have come up with something important there because I saw a cartoon earlier this week on social media somewhere. It was something about Mass on a Sunday in the church, very few people; Mass on Ash Wednesday, crowds of people trying to come in. And the cartoon was poking fun at people wanting to suddenly be at church on Ash Wednesday when they don't seem to be there on the Sunday. But I think there's something very visceral about Ash Wednesday. I think it does engage people in a way, you know, receiving the ashes, you've got a real symbol there to take away with you, and I think that does draw people. And, you know, we might ask whether we need to think about our Sunday Mass if it's really such a different sized congregation, but I think there is something there about that opportunity to witness that actually people want to do that. 

And I think one of the wonderful things again about Catholicism is its sheer kind of physicality, the sacraments themselves, and other aspects like the imposition of the ashes. It's a very earthy, very connected, very human sort of faith because we use these physical objects. We often do see a lot more Catholics at Ash Wednesday services than one would normally see at a Sunday Mass. But I do wonder, and this might be controversial, I do wonder if sometimes we make it too easy. You know, I think we've become too sort of used to, you know, you can turn up at Mass on Sunday if you want to. It's not a big deal. And I think sometimes becomes background noise. I think sometimes it sort of makes people feel a bit complacent, if that makes sense. 

Yeah. I think it does. I mean, I'm only thinking about it now that you've said that, but I think that is right. There's this Sunday, but there's always next Sunday if you didn't make it this Sunday. 

Exactly. 

Whereas Ash Wednesday, it's now, and you've missed it. 

I don't believe that people have become less religious. I think that for whatever reason, they've become maybe disconnected. 

So you're teaching in school, so I'm imagining that you have Mass with the children and you have well, I'm just, again, perhaps foisting my stereotypes onto your school, that you have modern hymns that the children enjoy singing, maybe with guitars. Have you got a favourite kind of liturgy that really makes you feel that you're in the presence of God? 

The Mass at school is wonderful. We're very lucky. We have a gentleman that comes in who's associated with CJM music. 

Oh!

And we're incredibly lucky. He comes in every time we have Mass, and he does our hymn practices as well. And the music is amazing. I've never heard children sing with such fervour and enthusiasm and genuine connection with it. Now on a personal level, I actually prefer quite quiet Masses. I sometimes find the typical Sunday Mass where there's lots of hymns and things, sometimes I find that distracting. I don't know if that's because of my autism. I like having time for quiet and reflection. I love spending time in front of the Blessed Sacrament. My preference is for a something like the old style Tridentine low Mass would be my kind of ideal. Probably run out of town on a rail for saying that. But when I discovered that, I just found that beautiful. It just gave me the opportunity to reflect prayerfully, and I could definitely feel the kind of transcendence. But equally, I feel that kind of sense of transcendence at the school Masses as well because of the joy that the children exhibit. I would say that on a personal level, I would prefer quiet and reflective, and I do like a bit of Latin.

That's reminded me of something. A recent guest was talking about joy and that we could do more to show joy in church. I was reflecting on it afterwards, actually, not during the conversation. During the conversation, I was agreeing with my guest, but afterwards I was thinking, do you know, sometimes, like you're saying, I like a quiet Mass. I welcome not having distractions of a lot of singing, and actually I feel great joy. I sometimes go up to communion, you know, very quietly. And inside, I'm feeling great joy, but it's not necessarily visible to other people. 

Absolutely. And this is where I have issues with the kind of liturgy wars. I think Mass, however it is celebrated, if it is celebrated in a way which is genuine and reverent, and that reverence can take the form of people jumping up and down, waving their arms around and singing the most charismatic hymns, or it could be high pontifical Latin Mass. If there is a genuineness, if there is a sense that through this Mass, we are connecting ourselves with God, the line of communication, you know, heaven and earth are joined, great. I think that for different people in the way you describe, that can come along in different ways. If I'm going to go down the route of hymns, I do tend to prefer modern ones to the old ones. I'm not a massive fan of Victorian dirges. I'd either go for Latin medieval or something more sort of bang up to date.

I just want to dig into the Latin a little bit because that surprises me in that you didn't obviously, because you weren't going to church as a child and teenager, you didn't grow up with Latin. Anyway, you're too young. So that's something you've found later, I presume, and yet you appreciate it. So explain a bit about that for someone who struggles with the Latin. 

I would like to stress I'm not some sort of trad. Pope Francis is my guy. 

Me too. 

I think it's because it it's kind of connects. It just, it's that kind of connection with the Catholics that have gone before. Now I'm not somebody who thinks the only valid masses are like this, that, or the other. I mean, to me, the Mass is the Mass is the Mass.

 I think it gave that sense of connectivity to the past and possibly added a kind of transcendental quality to it. This was was something that was entering into holy space. The fact that we were using a particular, this old and very beautiful, language appealed to me. I'm very kind of theologically liberal, but I do like a bit of Latin in Mass. 

And that's made me think, again, just while you're speaking, that you mentioned earlier that the natural world makes you feel connected to God, the splendour of the natural world. You know, when you mentioned about the physicality of the way we celebrate Mass and the sacraments, but also connected with this transcendental sensation as well or, I'm not, sensation isn't the word. I'm struggling with the words as well now. But something about that connection of a very physical experience and something transcendental, that is kind of what it's like too being out in beautiful countryside, you know, with the grass under your feet, this massive sky above you. 

I see it exactly the same way as I said when I was talking about human connection. To me, it's all about connecting with creation. Creation is the reflection, an expression of the love of God. If I'm trying to make that kind of transcendental experience, you know, I can just as easily have that, having a conversation with one of the children at school, taking my dog for a walk, looking at a starry night, being before the Blessed Sacrament. It's all part of the same thing. I don't compartmentalise. There isn't sort of God things and mundane things. For me, God permeates creation. As I said, Pope Francis is very much my guy. I love his theology, as expressed in Laudato Si’, about the environment and our connection with it and the intrinsic bond we have with all of creation. 

Fabulous.

I would like to say, I think that I've finally discovered in the last year or so why God wanted me to be a deacon. And it wasn't because he wanted me to particularly be brilliant on the sanctuary or be a theological expert, but the fact that I can advocate for fellow disabled Catholics. I've been involved in a special Mass that we have now every month in one of our local churches, and that has been so wonderful. Very much the opposite of the kind of Mass that I said that, you know, that I would be drawn to. Very simple, very basic for the children, action hymns, which I always forget the actions and end up looking like an idiot. I think the fact that I am openly autistic - I think sometimes when I've talked to other disabled Catholics, they sort of said, Hang on a minute. You've got autism. Oh, how can you have autism? Because, you know, you did it. Well, I don't know, but somehow I have become a deacon. God must have wanted it for some reason. And I think the fact that I can advocate for my fellow disabled Catholics has given me a kind of sense of purpose and vocation. I'm always gonna forget what to do with this, that, or the other on the altar. I'm always gonna be threatening to set fire to the archbishop every time candles are involved. But my diaconate, my service, is to advocate for my fellow disabled Catholics, and I've been given some really great opportunities by the archdiocese recently to do that. I consider it a great privilege to be able to do that.

That is amazing, Deacon Mark. I was wondering whether we might talk about being made in the image of God, being a disabled person, nevertheless, made in the image of God. 

Well, exactly. I mean, I have a blog, and one of my first blog posts was the fact that we are all made in the image and likeness of God. But I think sometimes if you have a disability, and I talked earlier about sometimes the guilt and shame that I felt, you often feel, well, you know, you're broken. There's something not quite right about you. But in fact, that's absolutely wrong. We are who we are all supposed to be. I mean, to quote that great theologian, Lady Gaga, you know, I was born this way. God made me to be like this in the same way he made everybody to be like how they are. It's important that everybody, disabled, whoever, understand that there is nothing wrong with you. You are exactly how God wanted you to be. God loves you as you are, and I believe that very strongly. I think sometimes people who perhaps are disabled forget that, and they feel there's something wrong with them, and that's just part of who they are. It's about nondisabled people to accept that and to be as inclusive as possible. I don't see how you can be a Christian and say that certain people are not valid for some reason. And if other people have got a problem with that, well, that's tough. They need to go back to the scripture, and they need to spend some time in prayer, and they need to actually see what Jesus said and did. 

That is fantastic advocacy for people who are disabled. Thank you so much, Deacon Mark. The Archdiocese of Birmingham is very lucky to have you, and I can see why your priest and your wife conducted a pincer movement to get you into being a deacon. It was a great move. I've really enjoyed our conversation, really enjoyed talking to you. 

I have too. I just hope it's been useful. I'm nothing if not honest, so I will have just given you, you know, the honest picture. 

I think that's great. And I think listeners will really appreciate that. And I think there's a great deal there that listeners will find affirming and encouraging, Deacon Mark. But thank you so much for taking some time to talk.

It's an absolute pleasure. Thank you. 

Thanks so much for joining me on All Kinds of Catholic This Time. I hope today's conversation has resonated with you. A new episode is released each Wednesday. Follow All Kinds of Catholic on the usual podcast platforms. Rate and review to help others find it. And follow our X, Twitter, and Facebook accounts, @kindsofCatholic. You can comment on episodes and be part of the dialogue there. You can also text me if you're listening to the podcast on your phone, although I won't be able to reply to those texts.

Until the next time.