47: A prophetic role - in our actions and our words

Episode 47: Naoise shares how he understands trying to live virtuously in a broken world - personally and professionally. He describes his belief that by our lives, we Catholics can 'have a transformative and transfigurative effect on the world around us.'  

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Henri Nouwen's book

The Catholic Bishops' Conference of England & Wales

Pact Prison Advice and Care Trust

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Transcript

Listeners, this episode was recorded before the death of Pope Francis. I think the way the podcast is introduced each week, tells you that I have been so influenced by the way Pope Francis taught us how we are to be with each other and how we are to be church in today's world. So I'd like to pray for Pope Francis - May the choirs of angels come to greet him. May they speed him to paradise. May the Lord enfold him in His mercy and may he find eternal life.  

You're listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro. My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of the ways we're living our faith today. Pope Francis has used the image of a caravan, a diverse group of people travelling together, on a sometimes chaotic journey together. That's an image that has helped to shape this podcast. I hope you'll feel encouraged and affirmed and maybe challenged at times. I am too in these conversations. 

Listeners, welcome to this Easter week episode of the podcast. Alleluia, He is risen. I'm joined today by a guest who explains something of how he's trying to live a life of virtue in today's world. So listeners, I'm joined today by Naoise. We've got lots to talk about. Just had a little pre conversation. Let's see where the Holy Spirit leads us. Welcome, Naoise. 

Thank you very much for having me.

So I can tell from your name and from your accent that you're from an Irish Catholic heritage, I'm guessing. Tell us a bit about that. 

So I grew up in Dublin. So the eldest of seven kids, four younger brothers, two younger sisters. My mom was Irish from Galway originally and my dad grew up in London, but to Irish parents who came over, I think, in the forties, fifties. An Anglo-Irish family. We'd spend a lot of Christmas times in London then the rest of the year in Dublin. There's been, interestingly, kind of like, public service in career choices people have gone for, adding some sense of wanting to contribute to the community or to get involved in life around us. So I grew up in Dublin, Catholic primary school, secondary school, a place called Catholic University School, which is a Marist school in Central Dublin. It was kind of there to focus the school on virtues and excellence and academic performance and treating people with respect and dignity, more so than maybe kind of in theological discussions or maybe having a deeper prayer life in that way.

And just to skip ahead a bit, you mentioned that you studied history at Oxford, but then you went on to study theology. So that's quite interesting to me that you moved on from history in your next choice of study, and what was that decision about? 

So I suppose for background, in Irish secondary education, you normally do seven or eight different subjects. So I went more to humanities, history, religion, economics, Spanish. I had a sense of wanting to go do something humanities-based at university. The idea of going to the UK is normally fairly remote. The university in Ireland is a lot cheaper. Maybe it's considered that the system of applying to the UK, the UCAS system is kind of a little bit opaque. But because my dad was from London, the possibility, the kind of desirability of going abroad for university and feeling relatively at home in the UK - I thought I'd apply to Oxford and just see how far I get, maybe get an interview and have a nice couple of days out. Slightly surprisingly, I managed to get in. And I kinda realised as I was studying history that the parts that really that I enjoyed the most were the parts that were more philosophical, ecclesial ideas based. And I spent my final undergraduate year living at the chaplaincy in Oxford, the Catholic chaplaincy, in a residential space with 13 different students. And quite a few of my close friends there were reading theology. They just seemed to be having a fantastic time, and I much preferred discussing their essays than I did writing my own. So I realised kind of over the course of my final year that I'd like to stay on do more academic study. So I took a postgrad diploma in theology, which is a kind of one year conversion course. So I took a couple of historical theological papers, a lot of stuff around the early church and history and theology of the early church, and then went on to do a one year Masters in church history. So I could very much study history and theology. I still like thinking and writing historically, but we would rather that be more focused on the church and theologians and understanding the development of the church over time. 

And of course, Oxford is an interesting place to be a Catholic. There's lots going on there and so was your faith important to you while you were studying? I mean, it sounds like certainly towards the end of your course, but did you arrive at Oxford wanting to continue practising your faith? 

I did. I think I probably underestimated maybe some of the challenges of partly changing country and making new friends and developing a new social network and moving from secondary school to university. I think I kind of knew on some level intellectually these things will be challenging but I think until you experience those things, it's hard to see exactly what challenges you in particular. Towards the end of my time in secondary school, I was quite involved in a thing called Youth 2000 a young Catholic, maybe kind of more charismatic organisation. So I was attending quite a few retreats there. A lot of my social circle were Catholics. I felt quite settled in my faith internally and also kind of externally that a lot of my friends were Catholic. I was dating someone at the time who was Catholic. I was quite involved in Opus Dei formation as well, receiving some formation in in virtue and theology, and the scaffolding of my life was quite Catholic. So I think when I moved to university, I think in my head, I thought, Well I'll just stay in touch with everything that's been kind of feeding me in Ireland, and I'll just come over here and study, and I'll come back and forth and it'll be fairly consistent. But I was struggling a little bit because I think I felt a little bit distant from my friends and family and girlfriend back in Ireland and distant from my faith life over there. I was attending Mass regularly at the Oratory in Oxford but didn't really have any Catholic friends. My friends were kind of people I knew from college who were studying history. Lovely people and I got on very well with them. We'd have some quite interesting theological conversations but there wasn't necessarily that sense of kind of growing together in a life of faith, which I had in Ireland and I was missing now. But I promised myself that the second year I would just go to the chaplaincy and the Newman Society which is the Catholic Society in Oxford, every week for the regular Thursday evening dinner/talk session and do that for eight weeks. And if I didn't like it or I didn't make any friends or I found it a bit strange I would leave it. And I would go back to my rowing and to my college friends and I would say, Well, I tried that, but, yeah, it wasn't for me. I wanted to really see if I could invest in some sort of Catholic community because I just had a sense I needed that to support my academic studies, to ensure I had a happier time there, but also just to grow in faith and kind of be more rounded in my time. Within a couple of weeks, they asked me to become secretary of the society and to try to join the committee, which actually was fantastic because it kind of forced me to be there, And it meant that I had to commit and I had to get involved in the cooking and the cleaning and the hospitality and the meetings and all the rest of it, which was fantastic because I think university is a time when there can be a paralysis of choice. It can be difficult to stay the course and commit to just a few things. I think there's something about just committing time and energy to these spaces that compounds over time in terms of the benefit that you accrue and just kind of growing and becoming more familiar and deepening your friendship. From that point then, my social circle kinda shifted more to Oxford and my Catholic friends there which was fantastic. 

There's lots to think about there. We are going to talk about your work because that will be really interesting to listeners but I'd like to just skip on a bit to parish life now because I think there's something about that being part of a community and being of service to the community and doing some of the boring jobs, like you say, committing to that when there are lots of things you could be doing, it is really important and it is very grounding somehow for our faith. So I think you're quite involved in your parish now. Tell us a bit about what that looks like.

So I came to London in 2020 during lockdown. I had a friend from university, and when I was coming to London, she encouraged me to come to Richmond and to get involved in the young adult community there. There's quite a strong Catholic community around the parish, connected with Father Stephen Langridge, who's a parish priest there. And it seemed like it could be quite a nice landing zone. And I think partly because I'd had that experience of moving from Dublin to Oxford and kind of underestimating some of the challenges of that transition, and if I had the time again probably would have more immediately gotten involved in the Catholic community or realised kind of how important it is to find that early. I think part of me was just quite keen not to make the same mistake again, to find something receptive and hospitable in London. Quite providentially, I had the opportunity to come and live in a place called Loretto Home, which was a Catholic charismatic house in Twickenham. So I'd had some experience of charismatic prayer worship. I found Oxford was more liturgical in a kind of traditional sense and also more literary, so more focused on kind of academic theology and Catholic writers. The charismatic side maybe wasn't as pronounced. So I was intrigued to go and I think mainly to develop my relationship with the Holy Spirit because that was something which I felt I'd been growing in in Ireland, maybe not so much at university. There was something I thought was slightly missing, I could find again in maybe more charismatic prayer. So I had the chance to live in Loretto for two years and it was connected to the Richmond parish. And I became quite involved in formation of, in young adult ministry in the parish, yeah, quite a formative time. What I find, I think, quite helpful was the experience of living in community. So Loretto was an eight or nine person residential community. All of us professionals are having jobs outside the house, so balancing professional life alongside community life, which is, you know, a blessing and a challenge. And I think there was something about living in community that's - it's such a crucible of virtue. And I think you realise when you're living in community, areas where you might be stronger in and also areas where you're weaker in. Ways in which you can be more loving and ways in which maybe you're more selfish and not as loving or that you would like to grow in. I find that very helpful. I think partly as probably my professional life's become busier, I found that maybe I don't quite have the time as I might have done maybe at the beginning of, or the earlier stage of my career to be involved in the different parish ministries. So I have to be a little bit more selective in terms of what I'm involved in. Partly, as we were discussing earlier too, ensuring that what I am involved in, I'm able to commit to and to do regularly so I can both invest and also receive. I think so much of the danger of kind of stretching yourself too thinly, not quite engaging on a deep level where you really can see change and growth. 

That's very thoughtful. I love the phrase crucible of virtue. I think that's right. Living in community has - there are many gifts to be received, but it is it is hard as well to see yourself reflected in the people around you. 

Right. 

So let's talk about your professional life. Oh, just before we do that, I heard you mention the word providential there about going to live in the Loretto House. And so, do you have a sense of God working in your life and leading you into particular things? 

Sure. Yes. It's hard to see that exactly at a day-to-day level or month-to-month level or sometimes even kind of year-to-year. I think I've experienced God's Providence at certain junctures, at certain important turning points where I've had to make a decision or I've had a crossroads and I have to select a path. Most recently, actually, coming to work at the Bishops’ Conference about three years ago - I was coming towards the end of my time at Right to Life. I'd been working in public affairs. It felt like I was coming towards the end of a season and I and I wasn't quite sure exactly what was next. And so I did, what I kind of try to do, which is just sit with God in prayer, try to surrender to God, and ask God to lead me and for me to be open to what's next. And I find it can be a delicate balance of listening but also acting and moving, gaining new evidence and material, and it's an active conversation. So I'd come across a job at the Bishops’ Conference through a few different avenues. I understood that they were looking for a policy and research analyst. I had a desire for a while to get a little more kind of academically involved again in my work, and I felt like, a little more intellectual stimulation, and to write a bit more and read a bit more. So I kind of had a sense that I wanted to go in that direction. I'm not quite sure what that looked like. The job came up a few different times. Friends mentioned to me and I kind of turned it down the first couple of times. I was a bit nervous about change. I think there was also a sense of wariness of working in the church. While it can be a blessing in many ways for your faith and your work to be overlapping, there's also a challenge there. And I just had quite a strong sense in prayer of God saying, You don't have to do this but there's an opportunity and an invitation here. Yeah. I had a sense of providentially, okay, I feel like God is gently nudging me in this direction. I just applied and then came along for interview, and it was always very providential. The conversations in that interview and the mutual areas of interest and just quite a strong sense of God smoothing the path, which is kinda hard to describe exactly but I think sometimes we just have that sense of alignment without it being pressurised.

And for listeners who don't know, would you just explain what the Bishops' Conference is? 

Yeah. It's a good question and probably not something I necessarily knew when I joined. The Bishops' Conference is the civil service for the church in England and Wales. Alongside their geographical diocesan remit, bishops are  - they also have national functions. They represent the interests of the church, both in the life of the church, but also in wider society. So for instance, Bishop Richard Moth who's the bishop for Arundel & Brighton, is also our Bishop for Prisons. So in a sense, almost our minister for prisons. In order to support their role at the national level, they have advisers who work in the conference on their thematic areas of work. So some of us work in health care, some of us work criminal justice, some of us work in AI, for instance. Informing your bishops of latest developments in an area, accompanying them to meetings with people in government or in charities, different organisations, making submissions, petitions to different government projects and programs, consultations, supporting the work of the church. A lot of my work in criminal justice is around supporting prison chaplaincy, and Bishop Richard has an overall responsibility in prison chaplaincy as Bishop of Prisons. So working with Bishop Richard to see at a national level how we can improve the condition of prison chaplaincy. The secondary aspect of the conference is as a think tank where we produce reports on different topics like prisons or AI or healthcare from a Catholic Social Teaching point of view. So we try to express both to an internal audience within the church how can Catholic Social Teaching on things like human dignity and the common good and solidarity help us to understand how we can be more loving and more Christ-like in the way that we approach care for the elderly, care for those who are in prison, care for those who are the victims of crime. How we can pastorally in our parishes and our dioceses but also how we can try to evangelise the society around us both in a legal sphere, but also in terms of how organisations, charities, different stakeholders operate in this area. 

Listeners will be interested to hear what's going on there and how you're contributing. We've not really spoken about social justice as a motivation, so I'm wondering whether - is it a desire for social justice that has brought you to this work? Or is it about working out Catholic social teaching in our times and just explaining that to people? 

Yeah. It's a good question. I think it's a combination of both. On the one hand, yeah, certainly having an academic background in theology, a desire to read and to understand and to try to teach and to communicate things that I care about, such as Catholic church teaching and theology more generally, certainly informs that work and was part of motivation for joining the conference; to help our bishops and people in the pews to understand more deeply Christ's teaching and to find it more resonant and hopefully then empower people to grow in virtue and to become better versions of themselves and to have deeper relationships with God. The charitable social side is certainly there as well and probably grew over the course of my time at university in particular, largely through actual charitable work with the homeless when I was at Oxford. Doing kind of soup runs and breakfast runs and support people who were homeless. So that was something which I found very life-giving. It actually stemmed from an experience I had before I went to university where the evening I kind of received my offer to come to Oxford to study. I was walking back to my house in Dublin from my secondary school, so I'd been doing a bit of after-school study. Walking home, I think probably also slightly putting off having to open an email and check whether I got an in or not. And I encountered someone homeless on the street asking for money or asking for my attention. What I try to do, which is make eye contact and say, I'm really sorry that I don't give out money. But I try to have a little bit of a conversation and kind of recognise the human dignity of the person and have an exchange that's a bit more relational. And she said something to me along the lines of Don't forget about us. Don't forget about people who are homeless. For whatever reason, it just kind of stuck with me. As I think we kind of grow in our personal lives, professional lives, or we achieve different things, or we kind of pursue our own goals and ambitions, remembering as Christ said, that the poor are always with us. And there are always people in our lives, in our families or our friends group or society around us, who are struggling and who need our help and where we have something to give. And also that there are often times when we need other people's help, our interdependence. That really struck me at university that there was sense of - you can spend a lot of time pursuing your own goals but I think I always had a sense of, actually, I want to make sure that I'm spending a significant part of my time helping people around me and trying to grow and love them that way. And I think the homelessness work was something that I just found was quite tangible, quite relational. It gave me life. When I came to Twickenham living at Loretto, I set up a small homeless ministry called Home Helps where myself and a few friends would go on a Saturday morning around the Richmond area, mainly having kind of conversations with people there who are homeless. So we bring out a bit of food and drink and we provide some material support. But I think it was kind of more motivated by the desire to really just spend time in conversation and maybe even grow in some sort of friendship or acquaintance with people who we encounter directly. Often people who’re homeless, they often do actually have access to material needs or to material support in different ways or they know where to go, but often what's lacking is good relationships and good interactions with people. A lot of exchanges whether with homeless shelters or a lot of governments or charities sometimes, unfortunately, can be quite transactional and not really particularly relational. So I was quite keen to do something which would be more relationally focused. Do we know the name of the people that are homeless in our community? Do we know their story? Are we willing to spend ten or fifteen minutes in conversation and share something with them, share something of our own lives with them, and really try to grow in kind of friendship with them? In terms of kind of the work in the conference, most of my work is with the Department of Justice. It's very much from that point of view. How do we particularly care for the poor and the vulnerable and the marginalised? There can be a challenge working somewhere like the conference. You're a few steps removed from what's happening on the ground, and there can be a danger that your understanding of how these issues would apply to those who are victims of crime or those who are struggling to resettle in the community after having spent time in prison, for instance. If your understanding of that is limited to reports or other people's testimonies or events you go to in parliament, you can develop quite a good intellectual understanding of these issues but it can be difficult to have a real sense of the personal, social, relational reality of what's going on. And as something which has kind of encouraged me in my parish in Richmond, I'm the parish representative for Pact, the Prison Advice and Care Trust, the main Catholic prison charity that we do a lot of work with at the conference. And that was quite important to me to actually really kind of get my hands dirty at the grassroots level; try to really understand the issue from the people who are directly involved. Both in terms of those providing support and those receiving support. It's an interesting challenge and opportunity working on these sort of social issues at a national level because I think there can be a danger that you end up talking about people rather than kind of talking to people.

It's quite moving to hear you talking about trying to be there, encounter people, the smell of the sheep - I'm reminded of Pope Francis' image - as well as working at this more academic level. Amazing. And I know that you've used your public voice more recently to talk about toxic masculinity. Tell us a bit about that.

 So I suppose as listeners will be aware, there's an important but quite complex and sometimes quite heated public conversation. Private conversations probably in families, schools, different work environments around What does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to be a woman? How do men and women relate? What does this look like in our often more secular culture? What I'm quite interested in is what is the Catholic Christian perspective on this? What can we learn from good Catholic examples? You know whether from scripture, whether somebody like Saint Joseph, the epitome of what it is to be a Catholic man in his life of virtue. You know, Saint Joseph is someone who doesn't speak at all in scripture. We're used to kind of cultural examples of men being quite loud and brash. It's interesting that Saint Joseph is almost the counterpoint of that but at the same time, he's not a passive figure. He looks after the family as they flee into Egypt. He takes quite courageous decisions at important junctures. Myself and my director of research here at the conference, Philip Booth, co- wrote an article which appeared in The Tablet Initially, in response to the feast day of Saint Joseph and also the Dimbleby lecture given by Gareth Southgate, the former England manager, on the issue of toxic masculinity. But tried to give a bit of a Catholic response, particularly using the example of Saint Joseph and also the example of the Good Samaritan, an apparently single man who gets involved in caring for those in need. We agree with Gareth Southgate that we need better role models, especially for young men who can be understandably overwhelmed by very mixed messaging within our culture around what it means to be a man, what it means to be successful, what sort of virtues you should grow in. The reality of the fact that we live in a broken world where there are people who bully their way to power; there are people who exploit others; there are people who get away with these things unfortunately. So you know, why be virtuous? What does it mean to be to be a virtuous person? I've been quite interested in this topic for quite a while, not necessarily from a masculinity point of view, but more from a point of view of the relationship between kind of virtue and advantage. And it's something which appears in the writings of Cicero, the Roman writer, but also in a lot of medieval theology, and Machiavelli. Is it advantageous in a broken world to be virtuous? So Machiavelli, for instance, kind of writes to satirically suggest that it's not really possible. You need to be vicious because the world is vicious and this is how you win. I think it is possible to be virtuous and to be successful. I don't think it's a zero sum game. But I think it's important also to be honest about the fact that we do live in a broken world and we do live in a world where there are people who behave in a sense in kind of nihilistic ways where the world is ultimately about power. Workplaces are contests of power. Relationships are contests of power. Wider society is a contest of power. I think as Christians, we have a really important prophetic role both in our actions and our words to show the importance of living virtuously and the efficacy of it as well. It's only by living virtuously that we become better versions of ourselves in our capacity to love and our capacity to serve people around us. And that these things don't necessarily mean that we're excluded from business success, public life, from relationships, and from marriage. I think it's really important that Catholics speak to this issue because I think there are unfortunately a lot of young men, and I think young women probably as well, who are growing up with this notion that in order to be successful and lead kind of happy lives, they have to play games of power and exploitation. We can have kind of a transformative and transfigurative effect ultimately on the world around us. And there are examples like Saint Joseph, but also adding more modern examples to somebody like, Blessed Carlo Acutis as a young person who showed the joy that could be found in living a virtuous life. Is the world just about power, or is it about love ultimately? 

That's given me a lot to think about, Naoise. Thank you. One thing that I was thinking while you were talking was there's something about not seeking the advantage about living a virtuous life. You know, you can be successful, like you say, in business or in work, but it's the seeking of advantage, the seeking of power first, I think, that is that sign of brokenness in people. I think if what you're seeking is to be a person who has virtue and is caring about the dignity of others around us, I think that's where we can get on the right track, I suppose. But the other thing that I was thinking was, among the guests I've had on the podcast, you know, I've had lots of guests who are men in the church, who I can see, in the way they are trying to live their lives - as you are - they're great role models in parishes and in public life and in workplaces. They're great role models and so there are role models available for men and boys today, but somehow those aren't the voices that are being promoted so strongly in things like social media, I suppose. But I think encouraging people to look around for role models, I don't think you necessarily have to look right up to Blessed Carlo Acutis. I think, you know, there might be somebody closer to home that you could draw people's attention to. 

Absolutely. Something which I was discussing with one of my female colleagues in the team here this morning. And one of my colleagues made this point. I know you are absolutely right that we have to be careful not to suggest that the only people who can be role models are those from scripture or saints. Certainly we can learn from their lives - and seem to kind of set up an unattainable ideal. Now I would say that part of the idea is that it's important to have ideals that are also maybe unattainable, but we seek them. We move towards them. It is very true that we also need practically people in our individual lives and our community lives and our social lives that we can look up to and that are not perfect but are maybe further along in certain ways than we might be. Maybe they're more generous than we are or they're more patient or we can learn from them in different ways. In parishes now, we have men's groups and women's groups that are multi-generational. It's been very fruitful. There's something very important about that; about learning from those around you and also recognising that we don't need to be perfect to be able to influence positively those around us. I imagine listeners probably find this as well, people spend a lot of time online and with these social media figures, individuals they don't necessarily have any sort of personal relationship with, but can kind of dominate your headspace or the cultural headspace. Ultimately, we don't necessarily know these people's individual lives, their interior lives, what they're like in person. So we end up dealing with kind of illusions and I'm not necessarily sure how helpful that is. Especially if they're not particularly moral figures. Whereas I think there's something about kind of being in real relationship in our communities where we can learn from others and see virtues being lived out and see ways in which we can grow. 

Thank you, Naoise. And then as we're working towards the end of our conversation, I often ask people if there's a bit of scripture that speaks to them that has stayed with them or been important at a particular time. Is there anything that comes to your mind?

I think for the past year or so, the piece of scripture I’ve found quite helpful to reflect on or to spend time with and to, you know, hopefully learn from in some way is the parable of the Prodigal Son. And I read a very good book that I'd recommend to listeners on the Prodigal Son, by a guy called Henri Nouwen. He unpacks the painting of the Prodigal Son by Rembrandt. So it's this beautiful painting that listeners are probably familiar with. It kind of captures the embrace of the returning younger son by his father. And it's a remarkable kind of embrace of love and mercy and forgiveness. But you also have kind of in the background seemingly the older son who is kind of resentful of this mercy because he feels that he has been treated unjustly And it's not fair that it's about his younger brother who's seemingly led a life of of disarray and has kinda neglected his inheritance and abandoned his family, is able to come back and just be welcomed back with open arms. Nouwen basically puts himself in the in the position of the younger son, the older son, and the father, and tries to kind of understand theologically, spiritually, psychologically what's going on here and related to experiences in his own life. We can all find ourselves to be the younger son or the older son and hopefully the father in our balance of justice and mercy. I agree with the line that I think the hardest Christian teaching is probably forgiveness because I think there's something about forgiving others and trusting in God's mercy, which is difficult. We realise kind of the depth of love that involves and also the depth of love that God has for us and his capacity to forgive us. I mean, there's something about that, the positive sum relationship between justice and mercy that you see in the in the parable of the prodigal son in the example of the father which I find very moving and I find challenging because I think often we can find ourselves to be the older brother where we think maybe we're doing our best that we're not necessarily seeing the rewards for our deeds and then there are others who are getting away with things. Until we've been lost, of course, then we've also probably been the younger brother who has been forgiven. Let not necessarily to get away with things, but has been given, you know, a second chance. I think it's an incredibly rich parable and something which I've been very grateful to kinda spend time with the last year or so. 

For me, I think a parable like the Prodigal Son, that's how I know scripture is divinely inspired because there's so much there that you can reflect on for your whole life.

Right.

 And continue to find new meaning in. And for me, that's how I know it's something bigger than a clever person wrote it. That is divinely inspired. 

Absolutely. And as you say, there's a kind of timelessness. I think it's a point that Nouwen makes. That if you were to look at the painting kind of every five or ten years, you'd probably see something different. I agree. I think there's something kind of eternal about that. 

Listen. Thanks for your time today, Naoise. I know you're a busy person from what you've described. There's so much there for people to think about. I'm looking forward to editing this conversation because I get to go through it again then and pick up things, and I think there's a lot there to reflect on. I think there's a lot that will resonate with people, but also I think you've given us such a breadth of your experience there and how you're trying to put the gospel into practice. I think it's deeply inspiring. So thanks ever so much. 

Thank you, Theresa, and thank you so much for having me. And also thank you for starting the podcast. Thank you for taking the risk and doing this, these conversations. And I hope people at home, yeah, find something that they can relate to and that they enjoy it. 

Thanks so much for joining me on All Kinds of Catholic this time. I hope today's conversation has resonated with you. A new episode is released each Wednesday. Follow All Kinds of Catholic on the usual podcast platforms. You can also text me if you're listening to the podcast on your phone, although I won't be able to reply to those texts. Until the next time.