46: Holy Week allows you to live that real emotion of what Christ did for us

Episode 46: In this special Holy Week episode, Jim, a scientist and a theologian, shares how he makes sense of the strong emotions of Holy Week. 'I don't see any contradiction between my science and my faith or my vocation and my faith...One has driven the other.' Since childhood, he explains, the practices of Holy Week help him to, 'live, with Christ, what was happening.'

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Transcript

 You're listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro. My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of the ways we're living our faith today. Pope Francis has used the image of a caravan. A diverse group of people travelling together, on a sometimes chaotic journey together. That's an image that has helped to shape this podcast. I hope you'll feel encouraged and affirmed and maybe challenged at times. I am too in these conversations. 

Listeners, thanks for joining the Holy Week episode of the podcast. I was reflecting on what guests to invite to do this episode and I came up with the idea of inviting somebody with a science background. For me, and I'm sure for lots of listeners, this Holy Week time, those liturgies, the Easter services, they're so beautiful and there's a strong sort of emotional connection for me and I'm sure for lots of you. And so I just thought, Let's hear from somebody who actually is also a scientist but takes faith seriously, and let's see how that connects with that feeling of being at home in the church and this being what our faith is about on a kind of emotional level around Easter. So I'm very pleased to welcome Jim to the conversation today. Hello, Jim. 

Hi. Thank you for asking me.

I'll just give listeners a bit of a flavour that you are somebody who has a science background and quite a lot of psychology background also, and you study theology to an advanced level too. So I was just saying before we started recording listeners that Jim seems to have three people's worth of a CV there. But when for you was faith important to you in your life? 

I can't actually remember a time when it wasn't in a way because I grew up in a mining and farming village in Scotland. And if my dad was working - because he was a bus driver or a lorry driver - then we would walk the three miles to Mass and back if there wasn't a bus. So it was kind of ingrained into you, and it was tribal - Catholic population in a largely Protestant bit of Eastern Scotland. My granddad was Church of Scotland, but my grandmother was Catholic and the whole family was Catholic. And I have this vivid memory of my Gran watching Jesus of Nazareth when it was on television and the tears streaming down her face at the crucifixion. So it's always been -  my life doesn't make sense without my faith. It never has. It never will. That's where I've been. 

That emotional connection I was talking about seems to have been there for you from childhood too. So you've not strayed away from practicing your faith all your life? 

No. I had my, kind of went through my own reformation if you like, where I briefly went to another denomination and then came back. But no, I haven't strayed away from my faith. It's always made sense. And actually I think there's something about, too little theological education is a dangerous thing. So when I did my undergraduate degree in theology, and it was in a Protestant theological faculty because when you did Divinity at Scottish University, that's what you got. Went through that journey and came back. But there's never been a time when my faith hasn't been a strong motivator. And actually, my faith is the reason I do my job. 

Well, expand on that a little bit for us. And, of course, listeners don't know what your job is.

So I work in health care and public health. In 1995 the Vatican produced a document called the Charter for Health Care Workers and refreshed it, I think, in about 2016. And it talks about participation in health care and participation in health as a share in the church's participation in the mission of Christ. And Benedict XVI in his Caritas in  Veritate, he talks really eloquently about the role of care and the role of support. And, actually  John Paul II in Evangelium Vitae says the same about the role of health care workers. We're there to be ministers of life. And so there is a very strong emotional and theological component to that, not just a professional and scientific one. That for me is a kind of, the inspiration for what I think is my vocation to do what I do. 

So it's something about helping people live life to the full. 

Yeah. When Jesus said in Saint John's gospel chapter 10, you know, I've come that everyone might have life and have it in its fullness. You know, that's one of my go-to sections of scripture. The other one in Saint Paul where he says - Ephesians - where he says, For you are God's work of art. And he uses the Greek word poiema, which is actually a work in progress. And there's something about being there with humanity in progress that if you're a person of faith and someone who works in science or health, you see that progress. You see the work in progress, but you also realise that brokenness of the world as well. So for me, I don't see any contradiction between my science and my faith or my vocation and my faith. In fact, quite the opposite. One has driven the other. 

That is really interesting. I've been thinking about the brokenness of the world a lot because I'm just doing this other podcast, Bible in a Year, that I'm listening to with Father Mike Schmitz. We're wading through the Old Testament still where I am in it, but there's an awful lot about understanding the brokenness of people and our world and trying to work towards making things better. Tell me a little bit then about science. For some people in society, science rubbishes faith because science proves that faith doesn't exist because it hasn't got an E=MC2 formula for it. So how is it for you then that science drives your faith, I think you said? 

I mean, it's about a quote from the Psalms, The heavens declare the work of God and the firmament shows forth the work of God's hands. The more you read the history of science, the more you read actually that people of faith were great scientists. So Georges Lemaitre, the theorist of the big bang, was a priest. Augustinian Mendel was a priest. Florence Nightingale was a woman of faith. Mary Seacole, the black Florence Nightingale as I often call her, was a woman of faith. I could go on. Seeing science as absolutely contradictory to faith -  was really a bit of a nineteenth century invention. As Nick Spencer has pointed out in his book, Magisteria. But actually there's several books. It's a sloppy philosophy to say that science contradicts faith. You can't prove everything empirically. You just can't. I turn up for a bus or a train believing that that bus will be there. I don't have any empirical evidence other than the fact that it's been there. It doesn't mean it's there today or tomorrow. And I think this is one of the things where John Henry Newman, particularly I think, got it right when he said, We take multiple sets of convincing to give an intellectual and an emotional assent. And we don't just take empirical evidence. There are multiple forms of knowing. And we know that there are multiple forms of knowing. And recent psychology has actually shown that people use multiple forms of knowing. So even if you're a scientist, you actually accept on belief some things that you use in your daily work because you can't empirically prove everything. So I think what we've got is a really sloppy, fairly immature, rather fake epistemology of sciences going on that says you can't believe in things that aren't provable. Well, if that's the case, have you ever seen a scientist fall in love? It just does not make sense. So that's the kind of the top level. I think the next level is when you read Richard Dawkins. I love when he's writing about science. When he's writing about philosophy or theology, he's really duff. It's just not good. It would be like me writing about plumbing. I don't know the first thing about plumbing. I think we have to get over this fake view that science is somehow  - and it is fake, and it doesn't stand up philosophically - science is somehow contrary to faith or contrary to Catholic theology. It isn't. I think Catholic tradition has a lot to offer. Pius XII and Paul VI both said, Truth does not contradict truth. So if you can find incompatibility between scientific knowledge and theological knowledge, you need to go back and actually look at it again. 

Thank you, Jim. That is really helpful. That's given me a lot to think about. Maybe just think about Holy Week then. What does Holy Week look like for you? How do you mark Holy Week? 

So I love the truth of it. Holy Week for me is a very emotional experience. I like the watching at the Altar of Repose. I also like actually experiencing the desolation of Holy Saturday ever since I read some of the Swiss German theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar on Holy Saturday. It is a kind of connection. And I remember there was an exhibition in London that Cardinal Vincent Nichols wrote about, with the Spanish hyper-realism of statuary. I walked in and there was a statue of the body of Christ taken down from the cross with all of the marks of the scourges in it. Most of us looking at this, in a case in the National Gallery, were in tears, including me. And there is something about Holy Week allows you to live that real emotion of what Christ did for us. I love the Good Friday liturgies. My favourite point is participating in those. And then after the vigil actually opening a bottle of champagne because He's risen, I actually prefer Holy Week and Easter to Christmas in some ways because it feels a more authentic time. But it's ever since I was a kid, 3 o’clock Friday, Stations of the Cross, you were there. Then back at seven, and you had the fasting, and it just helped you make sense and live, with Christ, what was happening. And it was a bit of a microcosm of the whole journey. And I think when I've gone wrong in my life and come to Holy Week, Holy Week is a really quite powerful corrective. 

I think that will resonate with listeners very much. Absolutely. I've found in recent years, I've struggled with the Good Friday liturgy just because, you know, I do feel such strong emotions at this time. You know, it really connects with why I am a Catholic or a Christian. And, you know, if my life is a bit hard then I find it even more hard to be in that Good Friday part of the week, just that it is so low. That I have struggled with that service, I must say, just because the emotions are so raw sometimes. There's something very powerful about us connecting, however, with like you say, with that journey of Christ and really feeling some walking alongside him in some way through what actually happened, that is very grounding. 

Yeah. I think you're right. I identified with what you said because I find Good Friday very difficult and Holy Saturday very difficult. The thing that drew me to Carmelite spirituality was actually you're sitting in front of the Lord and recognising  - . As my theology supervisor said about Carmelite women, these women Carmelite nuns are staring into the void or staring into the abyss, and you're sitting there. And, actually, it feels like that on Good Friday. I still remember December 2012, I was diagnosed with a stage four cancer, and it was a very aggressive blood cancer. And thankfully, it responded really well to chemotherapy because it was so unstable which is why I'm still there. I went in on the December 4 during Advent, and I didn't come out of the hospital until Holy Week. And I got down on my knees on Good Friday and I couldn't get up again in church. I was so exhausted. But that Holy Week became comforting. And I think there is something in Catholic tradition about, we don't seek suffering for the sake of it, but when you have got suffering, uniting it to Christ's cross really did help me through my journey. And it felt like Holy Week was an opportunity to just give thanks, which sounds really weird, but it made sense to me at the time.

Our faith has to be, I mean, the practice of our faith has to be big enough to meet us where we are in our experiences in life, doesn't it? And I think the Holy Week liturgies offer that. And what about the resurrection? From an intellectual point of view, what do you think the resurrection is about? Intellectually might not be the right way to approach the resurrection, I suppose. 

I guess one of the things that science has taught me is that the world is still mystery, and Carmelite spirituality says the same. On an emotional level, you think, Well, if Jesus meant so much to God, why wouldn't you have the resurrection? And the point is not for me -  I think what was it that then Bishop of Durham said in 1988, it's not about a conjuring trick with bones. It's actually about the fact that God's love will triumph, and God will triumph. So I do believe in the resurrection. I do believe in the physical resurrection. Can I explain it? No. Do I accept it on faith as part of mystery? Yes. Does it actually make sense and is a linchpin for my faith? Absolutely. It's one of the hinges. My granny and my great aunt used to say to me - I don't know who they were quoting - but they said, It's not necessary to know much to love much. And this is one of these things where you think, Yeah I'm gonna trust you because you've said that. And I do think the gospels are trustworthy and mysterious. Part of God's gift to us is not just the incarnation, but the resurrection. In the light of that, we're an Easter people. Human health doesn't make sense other than in the light of our final good and the light of our call to holiness, the universal call to holiness. We're social beings. We're made for relationship with God, with one another. I think the church has a lot to offer. Take the mindfulness thing, for example. Ignatian spirituality, Carmelite spirituality, almost any spirituality you care to mention has been studied psychologically and has benefits for people who practise it. One of the things about mindfulness, I think there was a sloppy de-religionising of Buddhism that went in with mindfulness and the practice of mindfulness. Unfortunately what the scientists didn't realise was that all of these spiritual traditions knew that sooner or later, if you spend a lot of time gazing inwards, you will come to a point of crisis where you realise quite a lot about yourself that you don't like. And you see people in mindfulness having crises. There was a big feature on it in New Scientist a few years ago of people having mental breakdowns because of crises because they didn't have the spiritual disciplines of coping with the dark night. And so science didn't know what faith traditions knew. What's this got to do with the resurrection and Easter people? I think because, actually, if you see things through the lens of faith, you can see a much more joined up picture, a much more holistic picture of the human being in relationship with God and the world where a purely scientific view doesn't necessarily bring you to that, without that kind of multiple lens. The best of science can take us to realise the same as Catholic social teaching says about our care for the creation. Great. But, actually, science can also take us in a way where it goes out of kilter, and it's all about We're human beings. We can do what we like. We have power. Same in theology. And I see science and theology as Aquinas did, two books of God's revelation. 

Thank you, Jim. That's given me a lot to think about again. It reminded me while you were talking – I was reminded something about the mindfulness that you were saying. I was thinking about those colouring books you see with very abstract patterns for people to sit and colour. And I'm not saying it's without value, but I know what you mean, it doesn't mean anything, and so I'm not sure it really is helping a person to find something meaningful in their life where maybe they're struggling. It just reminded me suddenly of  - . My mother and my husband and I were, we were on holiday somewhere. We went into an art exhibition because it was pouring with rain, and we were looking at this modern art that we couldn't connect with somehow. We weren't sure what it meant and I'm not saying that modern art doesn't mean anything. It's just that we didn't understand it. But then we came into another room where there was this huge painting of the crucifixion, a very famous one, and straight away we connected with that because it really meant something to us, you know, and we stood there for ages and, you know, we couldn't even speak. It was just such a beautiful image. I remember as we were walking away saying, Now I get that because that means something to me. I know this. And so there is something about things being joined up that helps us to kind of make sense of our world and our place in it. 

I think you're spot on. And I think people are looking for meaning. They're looking for integration. They're looking for hope. So as a psychologist, I would say this, wouldn't I? But I think we live in an era of psychotwaddle. The idea that that mobile phones are the root of all evil, the cause of all problems with childhood anxiety. No. I mean they have a part, and they have a damaging part, so don't underestimate the harm that they can cause. But actually lots of psychological research is saying character, meaning, purpose, connection, value, basic things that us Catholics have tried to do; good character formation, the virtues. These are all actually important in people being able to live and flourish in a mentally healthy, positive way. So mobile phones are the cause of all anxiety? No. They're not. Actually, they're one part of it. Stop being so simplistic. We're overdiagnosing everybody? No. We're not actually. We're medicalising everybody. We know that for mental health, there's many things actually work better than drugs. And I think what we're seeing is some trends in science that are the reaction to a trend of medicalisation but what it's not doing is seeing the joined-up picture of what makes a good whole human life. We're still fragmented. And as Catholics, we can overcome that fragmentation by saying, It's about being joined up and integrated and finding meaning. So I think the world needs what Catholicism has to bring, personally speaking, more than ever before because it's a hurting world that needs hope and needs meaning and needs joined up. I remember my dad. When I was 14, we were stood on a train. We're about to go to Plymouth to see my sister. We were outside the John Menzies bookstore in Edinburgh Waverley Station and he bought me a copy of New Scientist. He knew his son - and I was hooked. You know, he said, you'll be interested in that, but remember, you're here to make a better world. I think there was something then that  - and he was a really kind, loving man. He would do anything for anybody. And there was something about - he just lived in a very joined up way. 

Well, he sounds like a wise man. 

Yeah. He was. 

As somebody who has studied theology, I'm wondering whether that affects, when you approach different kinds of liturgy, there's some kinds that you prefer or don't prefer to do with what you know about theology.

Yes. It does. I think for me, first of all, having the rhythm of the church's year is really important. For me also, I love it when in the homily, the homilist breaks open the scriptures and really teaches me with the scriptures. I absolutely love that because I find that really helpful and makes me reflect. The creed is a particularly profound moment for me, particularly this year because it's, you know, 2025 and325 was the Council of Nicaea, and the anniversary of the creed this year. The recitation of the creed during Mass, and in particular, I think, the quiet after Communion and the silence where you can shut up and listen to God. I think the other thing I find helpful is the Office probably. Although I like morning and evening prayer, I like the readings in the Office of Readings because you've got, you know, one of the early church writers and also you've got something of scripture balancing one another. You've got modern church writers as well. You've got bits of Vatican II. Nobody ever taught me when I was growing up that actually the liturgy, the Mass, the Office, they form these hinges of the day. I particularly love exposition and adoration. So when I'm in London or when I'm somewhere, I try and nip into a church where I know there'll be exposition, or for five minutes. It's the balance and stretch of the liturgy. I'm not explaining this very well, but I think the liturgy helps me make sense of my theology, and my theology helps me make sense of the liturgy. 

Yeah. I think that's great. I like the balance and stretch phrase. You mentioned nobody taught you about the Office. I think there are many, many Catholic people who do not know about the Office, honestly. Listeners, if you didn't know, the Divine Office, the Office, is a cycle of prayers and readings for every day of the church's year. If you just go to Mass on a Sunday, and in Holy Week, we hope, for the services as well, you might actually not even know that the Office is there for people.

So Good Friday for me, that moment where you kiss the feet of Christ on the cross. For me, the moment that always gets me most emotional is the moment where I kiss the feet of Christ on the cross, and the whole day is coloured by that. And that resonates in the Office. It resonates in the prayer. It resonates in the Stations of the Cross. It's a push back onto the rails for me.

You know, I remembered while you were speaking, that child walking three miles to Mass on a Sunday and as an adult now finding that act of humility, isn't it? And also very physical, kissing the feet of Christ on the cross, that that is still meaningful. 

It really is because it's a love affair. I can't do good for I can still see my gran, tears streaming down the face. Which is good because I kind of sometimes over intellectualise stuff. Went to school, did science in college, did theology at university, trained in psychology, and collected qualifications most of my life. And it would be easy to be entirely cerebral and everything up in the mind, but that's not how you live your life. 

Fantastic. Listen. Thank you, Jim. That has been a fantastic conversation for this Holy Week episode. I'm so pleased that you were able to make some time to join us. I think there's so much there that will resonate with people listening. And I'm really glad that the emotions formed such a part of that conversation because I think that's such an important part of Holy Week for many of us Catholics, but done in a way that is rounded and joined to science and theology and other parts of our lives too - health psychology. It's been a great conversation. Thanks ever so much for finding some time to talk. 

Pleasure. It was lovely having a conversation. It was just like we were sat with a cup of tea. 

Thanks so much for joining me on All Kinds of Catholic this time. I hope today's conversation has resonated with you. A new episode is released each Wednesday. Follow All Kinds of Catholic on the usual podcast platforms. Rate and review to help others find it. And follow our X, Twitter and Facebook accounts, @kindsofcatholic. You can comment on episodes and be part of the dialogue there. You can also text me if you're listening to the podcast on your phone, although I won't be able to reply to those texts. Until the next time.