54: I met holy people

Episode 54: Serving as a hospital chaplain is a path Christina 'didn't expect to be on.' In this conversation, she describes the blessings and challenges of walking alongside people at difficult times in their lives. 'It's a ministry of presence,' she says.

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Transcript

You're listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro. My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of the ways we're living our faith today. I'm grateful for Pope Francis, who used the image of a caravan, a diverse group of people travelling together on a sometimes chaotic journey together. And that image that Pope Francis gave us has helped to shape this podcast. I hope you'll feel encouraged and affirmed and maybe challenged at times. I am too in these conversations. And if you're enjoying these conversations, it helps if you rate and review them on the platform where you're listening. Thank you. 

Listeners, thank you for joining today. We're gonna have a really good conversation. My guest is called Christina. We're gonna talk about some interesting stuff regarding Christina's adult life. So we're not gonna talk too much about Christina's childhood today, but we did just share in a pre-recording conversation that Christina is someone born into a Catholic family, seeing her father living a life of service inspired by his faith. And so let's see where that's led, Christina. Welcome, Christina.

Hello. 

So tell us then about some of your working life. What do you think led you into the things you've done in your working life? 

Sometimes you just fall where you happen to go. So I ended up in Leicester going to university, met my husband through chaplaincy. I'd done a science degree and didn't want to stay in science so I did management services training with Leicester City Council. I worked with them from 1979 until 2011 when I was made redundant all through having three daughters. So that was the first part of my life, I suppose. 

You know, younger listeners might not experience the same kind of, many years working in the same organisation, these days. And to be made redundant after so many years sounds like a bit of a difficult pill to swallow.

You're realising that the world was changing. You know? As you say, I was a generation where you thought you started a job and you stayed in it till you retired. I'd always worked three days a week. So I had sort of Monday and Friday, which when the children were younger, I had time for them. And then as they grew up, I was sort of looking for other things. Just out of chance, my father-in-law gave a generous birthday present and I thought, I must do something with this. And so I did a counselling course. I was late forties, I suppose, and sort of thinking what direction is my life gonna go in now. I think I did that course at a time when I was more mature. I'd had the family. Now I look back, God was sending me in a different direction. I just did a certificate, but it gave me time to think about who I was. Am I just a mum? Am I just going to keep doing this job? You know, which direction am I gonna go in? We'd met very good friends who became Anglican clergy when we had our first daughter. One of the friends became a hospital chaplain. She said, Oh, there's a job doing for a Catholic chaplain. I think you should apply. That was totally out of the blue. So I applied. I don't think I got it initially. I think it went to somebody else and then that candidate fell by the wayside. So again, very much, Oh, maybe this isn't the right thing. So that was December 2007. I became a hospital chaplain. Yeah. I started my work in the NHS. My dad had been a personnel officer. My mum had been a nurse. My sister's a nurse. My aunt had run the ambulance transport. You know? It was like it was my turn to work in the NHS. 

It will be good to talk about the hospital chaplaincy work, Christina. I think listeners will be interested to know more about what that's like. But I just wanted to trace a little bit there through your journey from being a mum and working with the same organisation for many years, and then you said you did this counselling course. Was your faith something - were you praying about where your life was going? Or is it just looking back you can think, Okay, God was pointing me in this direction, and then it became clear later?

The image that I seem to have is, you're faced with, like, a number of doors to go through at certain stages in your life, and you don't know which door you're gonna go through. And somehow God will open up the doors which are right for you. You know, you might be knocking on the door saying, I think I really need to do this, but actually it isn't the right thing for you. I would say God took me by surprise rather than me saying, What should I be doing now? I got moved in the right direction. Certainly, I can remember going back to my convent school in 2009, by which time I'd been a chaplain for eighteen months. I'm thinking, Oh, I remember them telling us about finding our vocation -very much in the mid seventies. Women were empowered at secondary school. Look out for what you need to do where you're called. It wasn't just go and be a wife and a mum.It's just, it took quite a while for that to happen. But it was when I went back to school and thought, Oh my goodness. I seem to have found my path that I didn't expect to be on. And I think that's the thing about vocation that you actually can't imagine where God is going to take you. 

I just want to reinforce that little point you made there that I think listeners will be interested to hear, younger people, that even in the 1970’s girls in Catholic schools were being empowered and encouraged to think about things. It's easy to imagine that even until quite recently, girls were expected to do this narrow range of roles but actually, although the way society was organised then might have been more difficult actually to find some expression for your feeling of empowerment, it's good to hear that in the school, you were encouraged to think about what God is calling you to do rather than just falling into a narrower expectation?

I'm feel I'm definitely a Vatican II Catholic. Although I've got older sisters who experienced the church in a different way, I feel like I made my own positive choice, I think, in sixth form in school - that I was going to continue to be a Catholic and not give it up as so many other people did. It was the attraction of, this is a new lively church doing things, different ways of praying, different kinds of music. I wasn't attracted by the old ways, and certainly chaplaincy at university emphasised that as well. And I think the clergy were encouraging us. When I look back, you know, I think my vocation, again, was sort of find where you should be, part of our developing Catholic social action. Don't just go to church but find where you should be in the world. 

Yes. And then the chaplaincy, because you kind of were encouraged by a friend, I wonder what it was like, you know, walking in the door. ‘Right. I'm a chaplain now.’ Did you do some preparation? I feel like maybe you would want to study, or did you feel like a life of being part of a parish was enough to start with? How did it all happen? 

At that time, there wasn't really the same routes into chaplaincy. I think now there's some good courses where lay people can study the basics of chaplaincy and counselling. I felt like I fell into it. Yes. Certainly, I felt a bit of an imposter initially. I had Anglican colleagues who were ordained. It was a multi faith chaplaincy, colleagues from lots of different faiths as well. So it was learning how we did chaplaincy together. And I had to learn how to interact with the Catholic community as well. I had done a bit of that. I'd been the Nottingham Diocese rep for National Board of Catholic Women for a few years. I was aware of different parish contexts, but then when you become a hospital chaplain, informing parishes how to contact chaplaincy, making sure that people knew how it happens nowadays. Hospital procedures have tightened up, and you can't just walk in. It's very much about empowering the patient really. They might not want to be ministered to. You have to gain permission. So I found that quite often, I was aware of who the Catholic patients were. But just because on admission, they had ticked a box that said they were Catholic, I knew that it was really important to have a conversation with them as to what that meant. You know? Yes. I was baptised and I haven't done anything since. My mum was a Catholic. All the way through to, Well, I go to Mass every day, and I'm really missing it because I'm in hospital. So you can't make any assumptions about where people were in their lives of faith. 

And, of course, once someone's ill, their perspectives might change too. Some people, I suppose, you found on finding themselves ill, maybe their faith was something they leant on during that time. 

Well, I think for some people, there's this sort of deal that I've been to church every week. I've said my prayers. Why is this now happening to me? That's not the deal that I've got with God. Sometimes just talking that through. 

Did you find chaplaincy nurtured your own faith? Did you find it supported your own faith, or did it make you feel a bit jaded? What kind of experiences did you have? 

I would say in some cases, I met saints. I met holy people. They beamed when they saw me, and I thought, Goodness. I know I've come to say a prayer or give you Holy Communion, but you have blessed me in so many ways. I would include in that some of the religious sisters and priests that I had the privilege to visit. Even in sickness, they would share such blessings. But then there was also people who did want to challenge, especially the people who were unhappy with their faith. And I think, actually, that was almost the most important part of being a lay female chaplain. The I didn't have the dog collar. I wasn't a man, wasn't dressed in black, And just sit and listen sometimes to great hurt that the church had inflicted on people, whether it had been at school or family homes that were not happy. It was the, people saying one thing and doing something else. That's often why they walked away from the church. You've got to be able to receive the challenge. Sometimes I needed to go into safe spaces having had some of those conversations, and I found the chapels to be peaceful places where I could go - sometimes before, knowing I was going to have an end of life conversation or if I'd had one of these difficult conversations. When I left, there's a beautiful Turvey Abbey image of the Resurrected Christ, which is in the chapel. And I asked for a copy of that when I retired just because it had been like a constant image that I had gone back to. 

Oh, that's lovely, Christina. And, actually, I'll put a link to the Turvey Abbey images in the episode notes for people who haven't seen them. They're wonderful. Now I'm interested - previously, I had a conversation with somebody who was talking about his own ill health and offering up sufferings. I find that language quite difficult actually, and it's language that I heard at school, which I don't think I use now. Even through my own ill health, I didn't use that way of thinking about it. But for this guest, you know, it was really important. I don't want to disagree with the way that he has found that is really helpful - for accepting his sufferings, I suppose, in making use of them, finding a way through them. What sort of language did you find was helpful as a chaplain? And maybe it was different for different patients. 

I think letting people express their anger, their frustration, not try to put a salve on it. Actually you've got to let people feel how they feel. Sometimes in the past, the church has sort of said, Control it. Contain it. Don't be yourself. We are a universal church made up of lots of different people who feel different ways. In each interaction I would just meet somebody, and I would often just have a conversation. And it could have been about cats or anything like that. You know, it was what was important for them. I wouldn't go straight in with, Can I pray for you? I think it was much more important to have a conversation, find out what was important for them. You know, I often learnt quite a lot about what they were going through physically and mentally towards the conclusion of the time. I would say, Shall we bring this before God? For some people, they didn't want prayer at that point. Some people didn't want it in public. Sometimes I would say, Can I take that prayer? I will pray for you going back into the chapel or somewhere. So it wasn't so overt. So I think some people, I think, were embarrassed about expressing their faith, where other people, Yes, I'm a Catholic.

 That's really interesting, Christina. Thank you. I thought it'd be interesting to talk about being part of a multi faith chaplaincy team too. For listeners who are less familiar with that, tell us a bit about what that looks like. 

Well, our multi faith chaplains, it was dependent on the demographics of the area. So I think we had about a half time for a Muslim chaplain, a bit less for the Sikh and the, Hindu chaplain. But they came primarily to be able to speak to people in their own language in prayer and ritual, you know, especially at end of life. I had some fascinating conversations. And realising that, actually, we've got a lot of shared experience about engaging in a spiritual way with people - in a way that's just how people express their faith. Being alongside people in difficult circumstances doesn't really matter which faith you're part of. I think a lot of the older people that I visited were almost, they were afraid that I've got to do this because otherwise, you know, God will be... I'll be in trouble. Which it seems to be the language of how some people are brought up in their faith, which is sad. Yet other people seem to have had that experience of love all the way through. 

You know, in childhood, I think if you've had a well, I'm just thinking aloud. If you've had an experience that's made you feel afraid that I need to do all these things or something terrible is going to happen to me at the end of my life, that might stay with a child. Whatever other experiences have been presented to them, that fear might resurface, mightn't it, towards the end of life? It's very sad to think how damaging that might be. 

Yes. And sometimes people wanted those sort of conversations. I would say I was encountering families who weren't practising, but they knew that the faith was really important to their loved one. And it was, Oh, we know you've got to do something because they're coming to the end of their life, but we're not quite sure what that is. We know we've got to make it right. People seem to have not understood that the teaching about the Sacrament of the Sick changed in the 70’s. So it's not like you've got to have it just before you die. Reassuring people who would be coming back into the hospital that, Yes. You can receive the Sacrament of the Sick on more than one occasion. And I think now some parish priests actually encourage people to receive it before they go into hospital. I don't think I saw the Sacrament of the Sick being a miracle; this will change things. What I really found was that people in severe illness, when they received the sacrament of the sick, it gave them peace of mind. It helped them to accept what was happening next. 

That's very thoughtful. Thank you, Christina. I hope that helps someone listening. I'm just thinking about you as a chaplain then - a lay woman working as a chaplain in the hospital. And you mentioned that you had had a role at the National Board of Catholic Women. Did you have a sense of yourself carrying out a ministry in the church then? Did that extend into how you, into your kind of identity as a Catholic person in other spheres of your life? 

Yeah. I feel that I was recognised a bit more. It was a ministry, but it was much more than that. It was a ministry of presence. And I think I got to understand more about what that sort of vocation is actually about than I really understood from the outside. You know, that point of people blessing you as much as you offer blessings to them, accompanying people at difficult times of their life. I did feel that God was at work in that. I might have a list of people to go and visit. I'd walk out my door and I say, Right. Today, am I going to go upstairs, downstairs, turn left, turn right? God sort of guided my footsteps along the corridor. It was just too often that people would say, Oh, I was really hoping that somebody would come and speak to me today, or I was at the right place at the right time. Yeah. That was all God's doing because you're not in charge, really. So it was acknowledging that God was guiding our work. I was also blessed with colleagues of different denominations, and I value that time after doing the ministry on the wards where you have to sort of put on the mask and be, you know, I know what I'm doing. I can deal with this situation, whatever it is. I can visit people who have horrid wounds or are really uncomfortable. I learned that you look people in the eyes, try and see the person within and engage with them. Hope that God will guide you to say the right thing. I also valued getting back into the office and sometimes being able to speak to my colleagues. Oh, that was a difficult one, or What would you have said in that situation? You need that team support. As chaplains we're expected to have formal supervision. So I had set up that arrangement to be able to speak to somebody on a regular basis who understood chaplaincy.

That's really sensible, isn't it? Because while you can receive so much from people while you're supporting them in this way, at the same time, you are taking away a little burden somehow of their experience on top of your own experiences, and so it is helpful to share that and unburden yourself. 

My mantra was Who cares for the carer? I suppose I've never had that formal role of leading services or anything like that, and that's something I'm comfortable about. I did get a job working for the Church of England in social responsibility. I was working alongside the clergy at Leicester Cathedral, engaging with parishes to try and help their social action, and that's something that I'm quite passionate about. So I did that for six years and got to know quite a few people. And so I still do go down to Leicester Cathedral, and I've been very welcomed. They have an all female clergy team. I go as a chaplain claiming the presence in that space, a blessing. And that means I can have conversations with people of faith. That helps to reinforce my faith as well. And I'm also a police chaplain. We have a recognised role. My engagement as a chaplain in any context is really just being alongside somebody, I think, and listening to them.

Christina, we're working to the end of this conversation now. We've got some glimpses of your own faith. Tell us a bit about what practices, what prayers, mean something to you and nourish your faith outside of when you're being a chaplain and being there for others. 

Well, I'm still a regular Mass-goer and part of a music group. Music has been important for me all the way through. I sing, but I don't play, but my husband's a musician. The other thing is actually pilgrimage, which is probably a whole new topic. But ever since I was a student, I walked student cross to Walsingham. And that sense of walking with people, praying in a faith context, visiting holy places has been really important, and it's been almost a journey rather than the destination. It's been, again, alongside people. We're looking forward to going to Rome this year for the Holy Year. In this Holy Year, you know, there's more opportunities coming. For me, it isn't just about getting on a coach and going to a place. It is going alongside, walking, praying, experiencing different aspects of the community, whether it's the community that you walk with or the communities that you visit who offer hospitality along the way. I always say my faith is in people. Finding Christ in other people is what I look for, I think. 

There's so much there for listeners to hear about and reflect on, but I think we've got a real sense of you. I think it's really interesting to hear you talking about having done the student cross pilgrimage from a young age, you know, in a concrete way walking with people, and then actually later in life finding yourself journeying alongside people in hospital and even facing the end of their life. I think there's something really interesting there in bringing your concrete experience into spiritual support for others. You've summed it up so well yourself there that you find faith in other people. I was thinking of the word encounter many times while you were speaking. And I think we can really see how encountering others has been a bedrock of your faith through your life, and how you've turned that into something practical, into action also, and not just encounter for its own sake. That's a beautiful example of someone living their life as a Catholic. Christina, thanks for sharing that with us today. 

Thank you. 

Thanks so much for joining me on All Kinds of Catholic this time. I hope today's conversation has resonated with you. A new episode is released each Wednesday. Follow All Kinds of Catholic on the usual podcast platforms. Rate and review to help others find it. And follow our X, Twitter, and Facebook accounts @KindsofCatholic. You can comment on episodes and be part of the dialogue there. You can also text me, if you're listening to the podcast on your phone, although I won't be able to reply to those texts. Until the next time.