59: My faith has grown because of other people's faith

Episode 59: Helen reflects on being a lay Catholic woman in ministry, engaged in practical activities like accompaniment, and ecumenical and interfaith dialogue. There are rich, hard-won insights here. Helen describes embracing new opportunities because 'This sounds important even though I haven't really got time,' and sitting with uncertainty, 'I don't know where this is going.' 

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The Feast

National Board of Catholic Women

Spiritual Direction

Lectio 365

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Transcript

 You're listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro. My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of the ways we're living our faith today. Pope Francis used the image of a caravan for our travelling together on a sometimes chaotic journey. And Pope Leo, quoting Saint Augustine, reminds us, let us live well and the times will be good. We are the times. I hope you'll feel encouraged and affirmed and maybe challenged now and then. I am too in these conversations. And if you're enjoying them, it helps if you rate and review on the platform where you're listening. Thank you. 

Listeners, there's been some great feedback coming in, in the last couple of weeks, so thank you very much if you're someone who has sent some feedback or if you're someone who is meaning to. I'm always glad to hear how the episode is striking you. One listener who was in touch is working towards being received into the church, and they were finding it really helpful to listen into conversations with ordinary Catholic people. I have wondered whether for people receiving instruction these conversations might be helpful. Of course these conversations are not the same as learning directly about the gospel message and the church's mission and the church's tradition and teaching, but I think they might have their place and I'd be interested to see what you think, if you want to get in touch and tell me. I'd be really glad to hear. But for now, let's get on with today's conversation. 

Welcome to this episode, listeners. I hope you're going to enjoy today's conversation. I'm joined by Helen. Welcome, Helen.

Hello there. Hi, Theresa. 

So I often start, Helen, by asking people about whether they've always been a Catholic, whether they grew up in a Catholic home. 

Yes. I'm raised a Catholic, born and bred Catholic. I was raised in Liverpool, in a Catholic family. I have got quite strong Irish heritage, as well as a little bit else. Raised through the Catholic education system in a Catholic parish, the Redemptorists actually. 

While you were growing up, was your faith important to you as a child, or was it something you weren't terribly conscious of because it was all around you? Did it become important later?

No. I was very conscious of it even as a little one, really. Grew up in a very interesting part of Liverpool. We had Archbishop's House at the bottom of our road. We had the Poor Clares really around the corner, as well as Nazareth House, and then the Redemptorists, and what was then Christ College, which is now Hope University.

 They were literally all around us, and a Jewish synagogue just down the road. There was opportunity for Mass all over the place literally. There was no excuse. There would be a Mass nearly every hour of the day virtually. So I grew up in a very rich community. Obviously, as a little one, I didn't appreciate that fully. And then in the family, really, my parents would have spoken about a very private faith, really, but a deep faith that was there in in the family and in the family life. And that I would say, had an influence, and the Liverpool Catholic Youth Service was also very good. And something called CAYA, the Catholic Association of Young Adults that I got involved in as well had quite an impact on me and the Taize community in France, ecumenical influence there. So I would say, yes. My faith grew and was fed at each level as a youngster. In family life too, I I remember when I was about seven, we had quite a few bereavements. An uncle, my granny, and a close family friend, and I can remember faith connections around that really in a supportive way. 

It sounds a bit like your parents didn't necessarily speak openly about their faith, but it was more the example and practice that you saw. 

Yeah. I would say definitely. And I wonder is that quite typical, really, of Catholic families of that time? I can remember my dad kinda saying things to me like, you know, our faith is private, you know, but he was saying that in an encouraging way. Like, you don't need to be ashamed of it because obviously, there were practices like going to Mass and things that would be different from other young people. I think that was very typical of the time. We're talking -  I was born in the late sixties, so your faith wasn't something you talked about a lot. But as I grew up and as I became a young adult and then went on to be involved in faith-related activities, it became more something you could talk about and celebrate really and be part of, more of a lived experience to be shared. 

I think that will resonate with listeners. I think you're right. Many of us of those kind of ages can look back and see that that's our experience too. It sounds like a very beautiful, blessed time with lots to nourish your faith as a young adult, a child and a young adult. Are there times when you've struggled to see God working in your life, or has it been a wonderful smooth path to today? 

That's a good question. I think, I guess, many people would resonate with this. As you go deeper in your faith, the challenges will come. Life brings challenges, and you have to sort of work out where your faith fits into those challenges and different, you know, experiences in your personal life, in your work life, and in your faith and church life, actually. Let's add that in as well. So for me, I think my faith has grown deeper because of experiences and challenges and opportunities. I wouldn't have known this expression at the time, but I think theological reflection has been very important as you kind of chew over and work out what's going on and apply faith to it. It grows and maybe good people come in as well in the family or through your leadership, whether that's youth leadership or church models or just friends in the pew. And actually, even non-Christians, good people that I've worked with who've really spoke wise words and that's encouraged my faith. They didn't know that they were doing that, but they did. And they would be people even not of faith. The ecumenical world has been hugely important for me. From about the age of 18, 19, I discovered the Taize community and was fascinated by it. And the music and the worship just took me to a different place, really. My ecumenical friendships and prayer partners and people who've just walked with me through life's journey, that has really helped me to understand my faith and grow in my faith and actually remain Catholic in that context. You know, I've had to sort of account for why I believe what I believe or why I practice what I practice. It's forced me to understand better my faith, but also to build bridges, you know, to share, but at the same time to learn from others.

 Wow. Thank you, Helen. There's so much richness there. We'll go on to talk about your work in a moment, and people will not be surprised to find that this is something that is very much part of your work because you just expressed that so well. I'm really interested in how conversations with people have been part of supporting your faith because that's what I think about this podcast. I think it's so important, I've seen that myself, but also the theological reflection. I studied theology in prehistoric times and I found it really, really difficult at the time and vowed that I would never do that again, But actually, I've gone back to some of that theology so often as an adult, and I've found it really useful to be able to think about the theological underpinnings sometimes. It's really helped, as well as those, like you say, conversations and practices. And I think it's really good for people to hear too from someone engaged in an ecumenical world who actually feels more affirmed in their faith through that. Sometimes people might worry about getting so involved in the ecumenical world that you lose your foundations, but actually lots of people reflect and it's good to hear you too, that it helps with grounding you in your own faith in a way that sounds counterintuitive at first glance. But let's talk about your work then. I think people will be really interested to hear about your work in university chaplaincy. I was saying to you before that I've, listeners will know, there have been a number of guests who have talked about how important university chaplaincy has been for them on their faith journey as students. So it's really interesting to hear from someone who's working as a university chaplain. Tell us a bit about what that's like then. 

Yeah. So I currently,  my work is as a university chaplain at the University of Bedfordshire. I lead the chaplaincy. So it is a multi cultural, multi faith chaplaincy. I just happen to be a Catholic. But because of that, there's also opportunities at a Catholic level, you know, to encourage and support students. And interestingly, a large-ish number of students and staff do have a Catholic heritage. We do get a number of students from the south of India, but equally from other parts as well of the world. We are a very international community. My journey into chaplaincy came through nursing. I had a career in nursing long before I did any of this. So, and then I had a break with a small family. Then I came into ministry really within the church. An ecumenical post, first of all, and then a chaplaincy post in a Catholic school, and then now this post. Being a lead chaplain, you know, chaplaincy is about faith and not faith. It's about people of faith and people of no faith, the nones. You know? Chaplaincy is about accompanying. From a Catholic perspective, it's very much about accompaniment, walking with. It's a pastoral role, but it's also for us being part of the university and linking with all the other departments, offering support. We work with students primarily, but we work with staff as well. We're there for everyone. Sometimes with the students, it's just literally about getting alongside, providing hospitality and a place of welcome. And particularly if you've come a long way to study, you're feeling very lonely and homesick, the chaplaincy can be a great place to start to develop confidence in speaking English, making friends, understanding British culture, and then from that place being able to reach out to the wider opportunities and challenges that university life brings. We find we see a lot of the newer students, and then sometimes you'll be six months in and you'll think, Oh, I haven't seen that person for quite a long time, and you realise actually it's because they've stepped into another level. They've maybe found themselves a part time job as well, and they maybe are feeling more confident now. It's kind of a loss, but it's also a gain because you know they they've achieved a goal and they're on their way really, and that's why you're not seeing them so much. So we try and build a community, but it's a very transient community, I would say. We are a place of faith, and I think even linked to the conversation about ecumenism, in the two years I've been in this post, I would say my faith has grown because of other people's faith. You know? So when I'm with somebody from the Sikh community or the Hindu or the Muslim community and they talk about their faith and their commitment to faith, I'm really interested, but it also makes me more committed to my faith. That's quite interesting how being with other people of other faiths actually grows your faith. We really try to share faith opportunities. We like to dialogue. We run interfaith dialogue sessions. We work with an organisation called The Feast, and they teach us really good boundaries in how to communicate well around faith, some really good principles, and we adopt those principles and use them in our conversations in the chaplaincy. I think that's really important to do it well. 

I might add a link to the Feast in the episode notes so people can follow-up on that. 

It's very similar to what we call our spiritual conversations in the synodal process. Listening, respecting, giving everybody an opportunity to speak, not contradicting, you know. Being open to new information and new ways of thinking and seeing and doing. And also with our faith contacts, with our leads in the community, we've worked quite hard the last two years to develop those relationships with those contacts. And now we're at a place where they come in on invitation to help us. So if we're running, for example, a Hindu festival maybe around Diwali or Holi, then one of our Hindu faith contacts will come and help us. We recently celebrated the Sikh festival of Vaisakhi, the harvest, and our Sikh faith contact came in, and we had some beautiful Sikh worship music and nice meals. There was food. Food's always great. A great bridge builder. And again, with our Muslim community during Ramadan, we had Iftar resources. We had an Iftar meal. Everything's quite small scale. Even if it's just a small group around a table, we're present and we're doing it, and that's important. And in some ways, it's better if it's not too big because there's a richness there. You know, as a Catholic woman in a leadership position, it's a great privilege and a great honour to do this, and it's an opportunity for a Catholic woman in ministry. My predecessors have always been ordained individuals from other denominations, so it just so happens that I'm a Catholic, but I'm also a lay woman. That's quite interesting as well that there are those opportunities out there for Catholic women to step into in leadership roles. 

Yes. Yes. Absolutely. And we'll talk about that some more in a moment. I just wanted to come back to you. I was thinking while you were talking, I must ask you a bit more about accompanying, but I think you've given a really good flavour of what that actually is like. The other thing that was in my mind while you were speaking was about when you said that speaking to people who have different faiths somehow helps your faith to grow, because I've experienced that too, and maybe some listeners have. That speaking to somebody from a very different faith background, somehow it creates a bigger space that you can move into. I have experienced that. It's a wonderful thing. So I'm really interested to hear you speak about it too. But, yes, let's talk about women in the church then, because you were telling me that you have a role in the diocese in a women's ministry group. Can you give us a bit more information about what that's, how you got into that and what that means?

That's been a bit of a journey really, not something I anticipated happening. I studied for a Master's in theology in our diocese. I think there was 12 of us, quite biblical, at the beginning. We were studying at a satellite centre for Saint Mary's University Twickenham, a Master's in theology and pastoral theology. I knew I wanted to do it, and I I really, really enjoyed doing it. I felt it brought together a lot that I already knew, put it all into a qualification in a sense, or into a knowledge base. I found that it was bringing theory to what I was doing practically or had experienced practically. I think like many active Catholics in a parish, I don't think there's many jobs I haven't done, you know, in parish life. And I think I'm on the lawn mowing rota at the minute right through to being lead catechist and Extraordinary Minister of the Eucharist and a reader and then my ecumenical relationship as well. The degree helped me to really put theory to what I was doing and explain - and especially in Vatican II language as well. Because I don't think I'd really ever understood the teachings of Vatican II or how that came about. That really, really helped me to understand my faith better. And then when it was completed, I was approached by one of the coordinators, administrators, for the course, one of our priests. Unbeknown to me, there's a formation program within the diocese, and I didn't know there was some laypeople who were assistant formators. And he had a woman on that team, one of the few dioceses in the country really that did that. The lady was standing down and he asked, Would I be willing to get involved? It seemed quite a big role and it was obviously a voluntary role as many of these things are in the church. At that time, Pope Francis had had these small groups to look at the diaconate and look at women in the diaconate. I think we're still waiting to hear what they actually said. Somebody like Phyllis Zagano has written a lot about those because she was on those those groups. So that was kind of in the press. I'd heard a little bit about that, and then suddenly I was being asked to get involved in diaconate formation, and I kinda thought, This sounds important even though I haven't really got time to do it. And it's voluntary, and I've got a young family, and I've got full time work and everything else. It still felt like I should do it, so I did get involved. And it was a very interesting journey. I'd never been involved in seminary life, anything like that. Suddenly, I was brought into a very different world, a very different language, huge learning curve, and lots of experiences to reflect on as a woman, a woman in the church, you know, how a woman feels in that environment. And then COVID came as well, so I found myself saying the prayers of the church, morning and evening with a group of trainee deacons from across the UK on Zoom. And then somewhere on that road, I found myself with a new bishop in our diocese sitting around a very large table, several metres apart with the priest who'd got me involved in this to talk about the diaconate with the new bishop. Obviously, he wanted to know about our formation program. And I can remember going to that meeting and a little part of me thinking, I wonder if I'd get an opportunity to ask about the women of the church. You know? I wonder if that voice might be expressed in this conversation. Yeah. I did. It was a privilege, really. And we had a quite long time with the new bishop. And I did get an opportunity to ask him, you know, Would he be interested to hear from a group of active Catholic women about their experiences at church? He said Yes. He said, Can you find the women? Can you find a group of women? And I was really keen not to just choose people that I knew, to try and be a diverse group. So we prepared for that, a group of us, and we met with the bishop several times. We eventually formed what we called the Women in Ministry group, which I led. Our bishop was very active with the synodal process as have our team in the diocese. We've got a very strong pastoral ministry office and team. We're very blessed in that way in our diocese. We've gathered women. We've got a presence on the diocesan website. We've hosted some webinars. We've hosted some in person events. A lot of it's been linked with the Synodal process and those spiritual conversations as well. It's difficult to say where we're going because I actually don't know. We're currently preparing an event called Women of Hope, which is on July 19th, which is a diocesan day for women to celebrate the Pilgrimage of Hope and the Jubilee Year. I'm also diocesan link for the National Board of Catholic Women. And at the moment, I'm trying to promote that because they've recently changed their constitution. We're going to have a webinar next week for the diocese to just explore with the President those changes. So it's not super formalised. It's not a group that meets, like, every week or every fortnight. Think if anything, it's about being a voice. 

Thank you for explaining that, Helen. I think listeners will be, I guess some listeners will be delighted that women have a voice in the diocese of Northampton, but it sounds as though it's, like you say, hard to know where it's going because well, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I suppose we can't see where the church is going on this issue. So it's hard for you, as a group of women in a particular diocese in a particular location, to know where you're going either. Does that seem right to you?

Yeah. No. I'd really agree with that. I don't know where this is going. I've learned a lot through the process, and some of that needs unpicking a little bit. All I know is that it felt right to do this. Each little project, the women of hope project, it's brought together a different group of women to organise it. But what I would say is it's very much women of a certain age. That troubles me. We're not getting younger women, and I would love to hear their voice. But I think it's important that we're doing something even if it's not perfect, whatever perfect is. And I think it has to model everything I've said in this podcast, how we communicate ecumenically, how we communicate at interfaith level. It's the same principles. Women are not all the same across the church. They don't all want the same things. I mean, some don't want to be a voice because they're very happy with how things are and they don't see any need for anything to change. But there are others who are concerned or who do feel that the Holy Spirit is calling them in a certain way and want to be able to respond. They want to be able to discern. They want spiritual conversations. They want their vocation to be taken at least seriously even if those opportunities aren't there. They at least want to be heard. And it's something about bringing people together on the journey and moving forward together, bridge building. There's got to be a sensitivity as well. You know, we hear radical voices, don't we? Isn't always helpful in building bridges or in in winning trust, in listening. It's really important to try to be together. 

I think there's great wisdom there, Helen, building on all of your experience to now. Now you mentioned the Holy Spirit there and discerning, and that's helpful. That's moving me into what I was going to ask you about next. So you were telling me that you are going to start a PhD. It would be good to hear about that, but I was particularly thinking, is that something that that idea has come to you through prayer and reflection? Have you discerned that this is where the Lord is calling you now? Or did you just see a great PhD and think, well, I want to do that? Tell us a bit about how you how you make that decision. 

It definitely isn't the latter. I am going to do some research, and that's what I call it.

 It happens to be at PhD level. It's research about capturing the voice of women in the Catholic Church at this time. We're at the very beginning of the journey, so this is probably all going to change. But it's something about effective ministry of women in in the Catholic Church, what it means to be effective, what it means to be a woman, what ministry might look like in the Catholic Church at this time. It's very much linked to the synodal process and the voices of women. Throughout that whole process, there is a voice through the synodal process from the women of the church, even though we acknowledge there are lots of women who are very comfortable with church as it is and very comfortable with their role in it and their spirituality and their faith, which is great. They have our full respect. But there's lots of women who are not. That echoed globally and often in poorer parts of the world, the women who are marginalized and not treated well. So it isn't just about women feeling called into positions of leadership. It's also about the women of the church in poorer parts of the world. You know, you sort of said about discernment, and I entered this a little bit unexpectedly. Always been kind of living it out, and it just started to take shape. The need to share what I've experienced and maybe to find out more and to articulate it better was the sense of calling, and I couldn't really see any other way of doing that. Tried to avoid it because I feel practical ministry is how we do it really and how I've always been. In the final document of the recent synodal meeting in Rome, section 60, the late Pope Francis called for more research in this field. He's saying more work needs to be done. That was pivotal to my calling, really. You know, I felt like maybe that gives a rationale for why I'm going to do this at this stage in my life. And I think my ecumenical perspective will be really important. I think probably at the end of the five years, it'll be a very different version to what I'm thinking it might be now. 

It's a huge commitment, isn't it? Yo put aside this time to really dig into this topic. But I I agree with you. I think your life experience, the Lord has led you to be ready to do this now, so that's a wonderful thing. I wonder, as we work towards the end of this conversation, I'd just like to try and get a little flavour of your spirituality and what are the prayers or practices that are absolutely foundational for you in nurturing your faith that help you feel connected with God?

I would say a rhythm of prayer. So a daily prayer life by listening to a prayer app. Usually, on my way to work, I actually have a drive to work. The one I currently use is an ecumenical one, Lectio 365. Very fortunate, but even though I'm in a multicultural, multi faith community, we are a Christian led team, so I have opportunities to pray with my team. I'm in an ecumenical marriage as well, so my husband and I will pray together. You know, I'd love to get to Mass every day if I could in an ideal world. I can't because I work. But I do get opportunities for Mass in the week - and Adoration and I love Adoration. Just that silence and that quiet time. I would say spiritual direction is really, really important. I would really encourage those listening to seek that out. The other prayers like the examen at the end of the day. When gathering with others, that's Lectio Divina. But it doesn't have to be hugely formal. Even just sometimes mantras, like just saying those words like Come Holy Spirit, just breathing Come Holy Spirit, just into a difficult situation. 

That's very rich. I really appreciate, Helen, that you've given some time today when, as you say, you're working full time and you have many other hats you wear. So thank you so much for spending this time. The huge life experience that you've brought to this conversation and the depth of your thoughts about the things that you've done and the way that you work, the way that you live your faith. I think there's so much there that listeners are gonna find stays with them and that they can reflect on over time. So thanks ever so much for being a guest today.

You're very welcome. Thank you for having me. 

Thanks so much for joining me on All Kinds of Catholic this time. I hope today's conversation has resonated with you. A new episode is released each Wednesday. Follow All Kinds of Catholic on the usual podcast platforms. Rate and review to help others find it. And follow our X, Twitter, and Facebook accounts @kindsofCatholic. You can comment on episodes and be part of the dialogue there. You can also text me if you're listening to the podcast on your phone, although I won't be able to reply to those texts. Until the next time.