64: Surrounded by people that show you your faith

Episode 64 Nana shares how experiencing the aftermath of armed conflict, and meeting some of the people affected, led her to working at CAFOD.  She once vowed, 'There's no way I'm going back into a church.' But here she reflects on how she has moved from anger to recognising that 'we are all peacemakers'. Nowadays people 'absolutely rooted in their faith, connected to each other and to the earth,' are shaping Nana's own relationship with God. 

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Transcript

00:00:08 [Theresa]

You're listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro. My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of the ways we're living our faith today. Pope Francis used the image of a caravan for our travelling together on a sometimes chaotic journey. And Pope Leo, quoting Saint Augustine, reminds us, Let us live well and the times will be good. We are the times. I hope you'll feel encouraged and affirmed, and maybe challenged now and then. I am too in these conversations. And if you're enjoying them, it helps if you rate and review on the platform where you're listening. Thank you.

00:01:02 [Theresa]

Just before we get into today's episode, listeners, we're going to be talking about CAFOD, which is the Catholic agency for overseas development. It's the official aid agency of the Catholic church in England and Wales. If you're not based in England and Wales, you might not know that. And CAFOD kindly offers me practical support with this podcast too. But let's get on with today's episode. Listeners, thanks ever so much for joining the episode today. I'm joined by a really interesting guest. This is Nana, who works for CAFOD. So welcome, Nana.

00:01:34 [Nana]

Thank you for inviting me, Theresa. It's lovely to just spend some time chatting with you today.

00:01:40 [Theresa]

Exactly.  Listeners, we thought we might start differently today, and we might start with your role at CAFOD. Nana tell us a little bit about what you do and how you came into that role. 

00:01:49 [Nana]

Yes. I'm gonna start at the very beginning. I came to CAFOD after doing a stint with the United Nations on a peacekeeping mission in Kosovo, what I believe is still called the Balkans today. My core career is in radio journalism, and I joined the UN to help them establish what they call a Hearts and Minds radio station after conflict, so a sort of peace radio station. And it was a life changing experience for me because I'd never ever been in the midst of an aftermath of a conflict. And I think it was that experience that made me realise that I didn't want to go back to the BBC to sort of just make programmes, but there was,  I was, I can say it now I think, being called to do something more. I had one little glimpse of that when I was at the BBC when I interviewed two young boys, and they were boys, who were survivors of the Sierra Leone conflict.

And they were only, what, 14, 15? They couldn't look me in the eye when they were speaking. You know, they were referred to as child soldiers or child combatants. And even then, I was processing, this is not right. I came to CAFOD because my late husband said, Oh, look. There's a really interesting job, and it's with a Catholic aid agency. And they're looking for somebody who's willing to travel to their Africa programs. Our son at the time was about eight, nine months old, and my late mum was still with us.  And they just said, Don't worry about it. We'll look after him. You get on. And so I joined CAFOD in the early two thousands, and I kind of felt like I had found the right place to start to understand how we can do development better. And I've grown with CAFOD over, I should be proud to say now, nearly twenty years, and I've seen how CAFOD has improved and improved and improved to do development better just knowing that CAFOD checks itself and says, You know, we're not there yet. We’ve still got to improve the way we do development, the way we work with and serve communities in in the global South. So that was my initial journey, Theresa.

00:04:37 [Theresa]

Wow, Nana. Thank you for sharing that. I'm now completely in awe of your skills and experience, and, you know, I'm somebody for whom peace is really, really important. So to be talking to you today with you having that experience on the ground in some of those places and talking to people involved, that's a great privilege. And now we've not spoken about your faith directly so far, let's think about where your faith comes into this. I can hear you being able to say that you were called, and I know that is hard to say sometimes. I've struggled with that myself also. We’d rather say something a bit more humble sounding, I suppose. I mean, I can see how the Lord gave you those experiences and got you into this right place for you at the right time. But tell us a bit about what that felt like for you. Where was your faith in all of those terrible, at times, experiences?

00:05:27 [Nana]

Do you know what? I'll start with when I was leaving for university, I remembered walking up Brockley Grove and saying, I'm done. God doesn't do it right. God doesn't care about women because, you know, you're 18, you're a feminist. There's no way I'm going back into a church. I guess life takes over. God doesn't leave you. He's just showing you experiences, putting people in front of you. You don't always realise it at the time because you're young. But in that youth and then as I, you know, like to think became a bit more mature and had a sort of pinch of wisdom, I started perhaps to hear His voice more clearly for myself.  So where is God in all that journey? I can honestly say that in Kosovo, because of the experiences I had, what I'd seen, the people I'd met, I was angry because I thought, how can a loving God let this awful, awful, awful conflict happen? And these people… the animosity between the Albanians and the Serbians, and then on top of that, people feeling no sense of place anymore, no sense of joy, the waking up and feeling joyful in the mornings. I was in my early thirties then, so there was definitely a lot of anger. But as I came to CAFOD and so now I've settled. I've got my son. I have my husband. And I don't know. Things started to come together a bit more. And I just thought, Oh, yeah. Okay. My faith is a living faith. It throws everything at you, but that's fine because, actually, you're not on your own. You can only live your faith powerfully because you're surrounded by people that show you your faith, and that's what the experience at CAFOD has done for me. I have been very privileged to travel to many, many countries to see, to visit communities that CAFOD serves, and to sit with partners. My first role at CAFOD was as the Senior Africa Officer, so I covered pretty much all of our program of work on the African Continent. I don't know where to start with the stories. One of my first trips was to Kenya, to remote Kenya, up in Isiolo with herding community. The welcome, you can't help. You're trying not to cry. You're going, I'm not gonna cry. I’m not gonna cry. But you can't help but feel moved and touched by the generosity and openness and kindness of people. And I remember going into the home of one of the herders, just a simple, circular hut, and there were no possessions. There was a horn. There was a pouch for the milk that they collected from their herd. There was maybe a little transistor radio connecting to the world. Everyone had some sort of Nokia small phone, but there was nothing else. Mats to sleep on, animal skins to sleep on. And I was traveling with a Times journalist. He literally said, Nana, I need to sit down and stop and reflect. He was Catholic himself. And he just said, I'm too blown away by this. The community, the sense of connectedness with each other, the sense of connectedness with the Earth. This is right when everyone was starting to talk about the impact of climate change on the most vulnerable, on the poorest. It was those sorts of experiences that started to shape my faith much more strongly. Just staying in the East Africa region, I remember a trip to Ethiopia, and it was wonderful meeting Suriya. And she absolutely insisted that we had something to eat. And we were saying, No. We're fine. We're fine. Her daughter was part of a school feeding program that CAFOD supported. I should know because my culture is West African. I was born in the UK, but my heritage is West African. It's a terrible thing for an African not to be able to offer you something. It's just one of those things. So I said to my colleague, Okay. We'll sit down and we'll just – Suriya took out this cloth, unwrapped it, and there was a tiny piece of bread. And she just cut it up for myself and my colleague. And we were like, We can't eat this. She's got a daughter that's coming home from school.  She kept saying, No. It's fine.  I have something for my daughter. And it's those moments. Those are the things that have really shaped my faith. And it was really interesting. I was in a wonderful meeting yesterday with some CAFOD colleagues, some of my colleagues in the theology team, and we were discussing how we ensure that the stories that we tell, the narratives that we put together, the faith of communities that we visit - and sometimes it's not always a Catholic faith. Christian faiths. When I was in Pakistan, it was Muslim faith. But that sense of their absolute rootedness in their faith, how that shapes us back here. So it's not just about us here going, We've raised money.  We're gonna support this project. It's more than that. It's, their faith shapes us. Their strength shapes us. Their hope shapes us. Their joy shapes us. And so we were just talking about how we can dial that up a lot more.

00:12:03 [Theresa]

Gosh. Nana. So much to reflect on there. It's fantastic to have someone with that experience firsthand to share it with us. I'm really interested in how Pope Francis has talked about, reminded us, that we are made for relationship with others. And that for you, first of all, finding people at CAFOD to be in relationship with has helped your faith, you know, working together with them. But also meeting people who are living so differently, but actually for whom, that you mentioned that connection between themselves and with the Earth is so much stronger than it can be for us in the West, that that has really shaped your faith. I think that's reflecting what Pope Francis has been trying to teach us, and I'm sure Pope Leo will too, but that's really wonderful to hear. Also, I think there's something there about, I've often heard this from campaigners that, you know, we can feel overwhelmed by how everything is going in the wrong direction. So in peace, for example, or in poverty. And what helps us not to feel a sense of despair or anger with God is taking some action together with others. And that seems to be something that has helped you with that anger that you felt in some of those situations, that actually finding people to work with to try and make a difference has actually helped you to overcome that blaming God sense. Would that be right?

00:13:20 [Nana]

I think that is right, Theresa. I think we've all learned during COVID, post COVID, community is everything. That might not be your immediate family, but how many of us are on neighbourhood WhatsApp groups now? And those groups have really connected us with each other. We might not be in and out of each other's houses, but that group says, Oh, could somebody help me with this? We all feel connected, but beyond that, we all care. My WhatsApp group this morning was about a tree that had come down in the heavy rain, and it might need to be chopped down, but we still need a tree. It's really important to have a tree on the street. Everyone commenting on, We really must get together and make sure our local authority ensures that we get a replacement tree. This coming together, this sense of belonging. But I've also, in this current role, travelled to other parishes across England and Wales. People want to feel connected again. COVID was a terrible time, terrible, terrible time for many, many, many families, but it was also a wake up call that said, Me, myself, and I cannot exist in this world. It takes you to the Ubuntu, which is the Southern African philosophy. I exist because of you. And so that is now so much more dialled up despite the politics of dominant characters that are prevailing all our news agendas. I'm just hoping that young people don't think that is the way we should live our lives, that they too are wanting this sense of feeling connected. And I think my work in CAFOD has truly, truly brought that to the fore. There is not one community that I visited either in Africa or in Haiti or in Pakistan or in Bangladesh or even my last visit to Rome, where people don't want to feel connected. People want to feel connected because connection, I think, as you say, Theresa, helps you cope with what is today an incredibly overwhelming sense of despondency a little bit. Just this morning, I, shared with a few colleagues the British Attitude Survey has just come out, and it says the one thing that people are more worried about at the moment is the threat of war and the instability that that brings. And that threat of war, that threat of instability. Well, war's happening for many, many, many people in Democratic Republic Of Congo, Ukraine, South Sudan, Sudan, Gaza. War is a reality. But I think when we come together as people of faith, I think what happens is we go, Oh, yeah. We do have a secret weapon, prayer. We can just sit together and pray. That is the thing I think that suddenly, for me, my own faith life, has become more powerful because of embracing those experiences. Moving away from my overseas trips, I'm experiencing that in my role as the diaspora engagement coordinator for CAFOD. I've been into communities, African, Southeast Asian communities, where suddenly I’m kind of starting to get that prayer is powerful. I know I should know it, born and bred a Catholic. I like to be honest and say that I'm a wobbler. I'm like, Okay. I know. Prayer is our secret weapon. It's our superpower, but I'm wobbling because things feel like they're not shifting. I said this once to a colleague. She's wonderful. And she went, Oh my goodness. I would only trust a wobbler. Wobbling is good. I did reflect then on a really wonderful retreat that I did with my late husband. It was an amazing nun in a little abbey. I remember so clearly her saying, sometimes you just have to go into the tomb because you just need to sit there, and that is okay. And why is it okay? Because when you come out, the light is there. There is always light. And that just always has stuck with me, that it's okay. It's okay to be a wobbler. Sometimes you need to go into the tomb. All you've got to remember is that when you come out, the light is there. 

00:18:32 [Theresa]

That's a lovely insight. I always like it when people are able to share something of what has helped them so that that message from that nun is spread more widely. More people get to hear that now and reflect on that and see if it helps them in their faith life. So that's always a good thing. Thank you. I wondered if we might just trail here that we're planning - in case listeners are enjoying this conversation with you, Nana, which I'm sure listeners, I'm sure you are -  we're planning another episode where you're gonna talk a bit more about the diaspora communities and the research that you've done and have some people with lived experience of being among diaspora communities into another episode later in the year, so look out for that. I was telling a friend about this and she hadn't heard the word diaspora before. So let me see what my definition of it is and see if it matches yours. Nana, I think a diaspora community is a community who have been scattered from their original home, but they are trying to keep their heritage alive in their new home. I think that's what a diaspora community is. Is that what you think it is?

 00:19:30 [Nana]

I can honestly say, Theresa, there's no one set definition of diaspora. I was born in the UK, so I'm not scattered, but my parents were. But I'm still diaspora. I consider myself still diaspora because my heritage is part of my parents' heritage, and so I'm part of their journey. There are lots of different definitions. There are official EU governmental definitions. In the report, I have other definitions from writers and journalists. So it just depends who you are, where you feel you sit in society.

00:20:16 [Theresa]

Great. Well, listeners, there'll be more on that in this special episode later in the year, so stay tuned for that. For now, Nana, I'm really glad you've talked about being a wobbler. I think that will resonate with listeners, absolutely. And I'm really glad that your colleague at CAFOD says it's okay to be a wobbler, in fact, a good thing. I think that will also help people who feel like that. But can you give us a flavour of the sorts of prayers and practices that support you? You've already shared how valuable it is to be part of a community of people of faith. But are there particular prayers that resonate with you, particular things that you feel you need to do to just keep your faith steady where you can?

00:20:52 [Nana]

Yes. So for me, I'll be, again, very, very honest. I'm not somebody that prays the rosary every day. However, I did join a CAFOD rosary group, and it was amazing, online group, and I must try and join again. I think in my adult years, what has been the most important thing has been for me to start to navigate my own relationship with God. I go to Mass pretty much most Sundays in my local parish with a wonderful group of parishioners, and we do the coffee morning after Mass. And that's important to me to be in church when I can because I have to stop my world outside. It's just me, the Mass, and God. It's my downtime. And sometimes my prayers are racing. They're like, Oh, God. Here's my list today. I'm sorry it's a list. It's just a list. And, again, a really good colleague in theology said, It's okay to have a list. But other times, what I found is I don't need to be under a church roof to be prayerful. So I'm prayerful when I go to the gym. I'm prayerful when I go for a walk. I'm prayerful when I'm sitting on the bus. And so I take my prayers outside. And that has become very normal for me now. That's part of my routine. I do remember for CAFOD, Delia Smith said that it's okay to lie on the sofa for fifteen minutes and just let all sorts of thoughts just come into your mind. You imagine Delia must be thinking about recipes and filming and she said, Eventually, all the kind of bubbling thoughts would disappear, and you'll find yourself in a quiet, prayerful reflection space. It takes a bit of time to really, really, really practice that. So I haven't done that for a while, so I'm not suggesting that I'm brilliant at that. I always have these things at the back of my mind. I must lie on that sofa when nobody's in the house, and I can just practice that again. So I guess I just like my prayer life to be out there.

00:23:30 [Theresa]

I think there's something about just feeling ourselves to be in the presence of God when we're going about our activities, which is prayerful and connects us with the Lord. So I agree with your colleague who says a list is okay, and Delia who says lie on the sofa.

I think it's all okay, isn't it? We're trying to be in the presence of God in different ways, and that changes and depends what else is happening. But yes, I think all our efforts, I hope and pray, are valuable to the Lord.

00:23:48 [Nana]

Exactly.  And, oh, I forgot to mention that I get a regular reflection from a priest in Colchester, father Pascal. It's literally eight minutes long. It's just beautiful. There's a little song, a reading of the gospel, his reflection, a little song, and clothes. And that sometimes is just all I can do that day, but I know that it comes onto my WhatsApp every morning. And so that is also wonderful. And I guess, you know, young people, that's where they're finding their prayer life online. I know my son logs on to all sorts of prayers online.

00:24:34 [Theresa]

Now we're working towards the end of the conversation, Nana, but I think it would be really nice to just revisit peace a little bit because you have had that experience of being in a place where there has been terrible conflict. If only there was an easy way for us not to keep going to war and killing each other, I think we would have found it. I know you can't offer a simple two step solution, but do you have any thoughts about  - I was very struck by you mentioning the animosity that you experienced in Kosovo between the different groups who had been at war. And I wonder whether there's some reflection you can offer that we can take on board as people who are hoping to avoid having a war where we are, but also that can help us think about war elsewhere and help us take some steps where we are that can make a difference.

00:25:18 [Nana]

Yes. When I say the animosity, we arrived a few weeks after that conflict in Kosovo, and so the Serbs that decided to stay and remain, it was quite challenging for them because the Albanian community were the majority community, and the UN worked really hard to bring people together. There was a lot of that, and I like to think that Blue Sky Radio, the UN radio network that I headed up, did some good to reduce that animosity because we had to work with and train up a group of Albanian journalists and a group of Serbian journalists. And the idea was to get them to go out into their communities and tell their stories so that they were sharing stories. Pope Francis wasn't the pope then, but, basically, bringing us back to the beginning, Theresa, and your reference to the late pope Francis, what that work was about is trying to bring about a culture of encounter. When somebody says, you're just like me, we might be different in lots of different ways, but, actually, you're like me, and the like me is we're both human beings. We both love our families. We both want dignity. We both want respect. We both want to live in hope. We both want to live with peace. I'm so glad you asked that question because at Mass, Father Chris, in his closing prayer, and I'm not quoting it verbatim, but he did say, Let us remember that peace isn't the signing of a peace agreement. It isn't the gathering of political notaries. Peace is more than that. Peace is about people coming together, ordinary people coming together as community, feeling connected, feeling that they belong, and understanding each other. So we pray to the Prince of Peace that peace all over the world is beyond a piece of paper and beyond a photo call with political dignitaries. And that just caught me, and I even thought, Oh, I think I might be able to write a prayer about peace based on that, but I need to go into some quiet reflection time to see what comes to mind.

00:27:50 [Theresa]

I'm really glad that you were able to share that, Nana, because part of that is what I'm doing with the podcast. I'm trying to capture the breadth of the church in all the different conversations, and I hope there will be, for people, an opportunity to encounter people who are Catholics, but different from each other, different from people that we might have encountered already, and that encountering each other in this way is helping us to find a way to live in peace, I hope. I hope it's making some small contribution, like your Blue Sky Radio did - a bigger contribution, I'm sure yours was. I hope it's making some contribution to peace because that's something that is a huge motivator for me.

00:28:27 [Nana]

Every small thing that somebody does is a step towards peace. Your podcast. Smiling at somebody. My late husband, because he was from Manchester, so he was very Northern, would always say good morning to absolutely everyone that passed him by. We are all peacemakers. We just find that small thing. I'll smile at that person on the train. I'll say good morning as that person walks past me. That is being a peacemaker.

00:29:01 [Theresa]

Absolutely. So listen, Nana, it's been fantastic talking to you today. Thanks so much for making some time out of your busy CAFOD schedule. I'll put a link to CAFOD in the episode notes. It's already obviously an organisation that many listeners will know and that's held in very high regard, rightly, by Catholic people up and down England and Wales and further afield. It's been great to hear your reflections from far flung parts of the world as well as really, really close to home. Thanks so much for being honest about your faith journey. I think that really helps all of us when we can be honest with each other about our ups and downs in our faith and the things that help us. And listeners, I know you will be looking forward to hearing from Nana again in that episode coming up in the autumn. Thank you very much, Nana.

00:29:46 [Nana]

And thank you for having me, Theresa.

00:29:52 [Theresa]

Thanks so much for joining me on All Kinds of Catholic this time. I hope today's conversation has resonated with you. A new episode is released each Wednesday. Follow all kinds of Catholic on the usual podcast platforms. Rate and review to help others find it. And follow our X/ Twitter, and Facebook accounts @kindsofCatholic. You can comment on episodes and be part of the dialogue there. You can also text me if you're listening to the podcast on your phone, although I won't be able to reply to those texts. Until the next time.