61: Coffee with God, Latin Mass, and Sewing for the Church

Episode 61 Anna shares how friends helped her to recognise the presence of God in her life, as a teenager. Through prayer, she finally answered the Lord's 'nudging' and became a Lay Dominican. Her faith is nourished by attending the Latin Mass where she feels she can 'focus' better, and building community through sewing vestments and keeping ancient skills alive.

Find out more

Latin Mass Society

Guild of St Clare (not secure)

Opus Anglicanum sewing techniques

Books:

St Teresa of Avila: Interior Castle

Monsignor James Shea: From Christendom to Apostolic Mission 

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The podcast is kindly supported by the Passionists of St Patrick's Province, Ireland & Britain and by CAFOD.

Music: Greenleaves from Audionautix.com

Transcript

00:00:08 [Theresa]

You're listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro. My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of the ways we're living our faith today. Pope Francis used the image of a caravan for our travelling together on a sometimes chaotic journey.  And Pope Leo, quoting Saint Augustine, reminds us, Let us live well and the times will be good. We are the times. I hope you'll feel encouraged and affirmed, and maybe challenged now and then. I am too in these conversations. And if you're enjoying them, it helps if you rate and review on the platform where you're listening. Thank you.

Listeners, thanks for tuning in today. I’m being joined by a really interesting guest and we’ll have a great conversation. Welcome, Anna.

00:01:08 [Anna]

Hello. Hi, Theresa. Thank you for inviting me.

00:01:11 [Theresa]

So I wonder whether we might start at the beginning, Anna. We've got a number of things we want to talk about, but I noticed your Polish accent. Let's think about  - were you born into a Catholic family? How has your path been from childhood?

00:01:23 [Anna]

So, I am, you can say, sort of a cradle cultural Catholic.

So I come from Poland, which is predominantly Catholic country, and as such, I was baptised as an infant. But my family is not particularly religious. In fact, my mother is very much anti church. So when I was growing up, we weren't really going to church, although my parents would define themselves as Catholic. I started going to church from about the age of 12 years under the influence of my friends. Most of my friends were practising Catholics, and they invited me to join them for a retreat, and I really loved it. I really felt the presence of God. Obviously, I had felt it beforehand, but I couldn't really name it and explain what that was. That gave me the answers. And then when I went to high school, I had a very good catechist that was a Dominican friar from Poland who was a really holy and remarkably wise man who was truly, truly inspiring. At some point, I was even thinking about becoming a Dominican Sister, which he advised me not to do, but I've always dreamt of becoming a Lay Dominican. When I explored the Dominican lifestyle, I found out that it's based on four pillars, which is the prayer, study community, preaching. And I had problem with preaching because I'm not particularly experienced in public speaking. I don't even enjoy it. I have a bit of a social anxiety. I don't like being in front of crowds. And I had really problem with it. How do I actually go about that preaching bit? So I was struggling with that for, like, well, over twenty years. And finally, two years ago, I joined Lay Dominicans after nudging from God in my prayers. So, I was - it's really funny because I really feel that I'm not the right person to do that, but at the same time, it's, like, persistent nudge from God. You have to do it. You have to do it. Okay. I'll do it. It's best decision in my life.

00:03:47 [Theresa]

So the Lord was right then? That is the right place for you.

00:03:51 [Anna]

I still haven't sorted out the preaching bit, but it turns out actually preaching is going to be the easiest bit. What I'm struggling the most with is actually prayer.

00:04:00 [Theresa]

So now you're a Lay Dominican. Is there a rhythm of prayer that you need to work to more closely than before?

00:04:06 [Anna]

Yes. We as part of our observance, we are encouraged to say the daily Office and the rosary, and I do have problem with commitment to those particular forms. You know, I'm more a kind of Catholic who likes having a coffee with God or go to the Exposition and pray before the Sacrament. And I like Latin Mass because it's smells and bells, and it's peace and quiet, and you can actually tune in. But I think it's part of the reason why I struggle with that so much is actually I have problems with maintaining attention. It's kind of interesting. It's just the way I am. It's, you know, it's my cross. Thankfully those requirements for daily Office and rosary are not under the penance of sin. So it's not like I have to do it, but I think it's a good practice. I'm trying my best, but it's very hard. The problem is also the fact that I don't really have a routine because I work as a doctor and I do on-calls. So I don't really have what normal people call a routine. It's all over the place, so it's difficult to kind of incorporate those rhythms into my routine because I don't have it.

00:05:16 [Theresa]

We had a guest before who was in nursing who worked shifts, and she was saying something similar that having a routine was so difficult for her while she was working. I can understand that. But also, I think there's a really interesting link there that you mentioned you love Exposition because of the peace and quiet, and also that's something - that is why you like the Latin Mass. So I've had a couple of guests before who liked the Latin Mass, and they were talking about it being a sense of transcendence, a sense of being in the presence of something beautiful. So tell us a bit about that then for people who maybe are not sure what's, what the attraction of the Latin Mass is. Tell us a bit more about how you experience it.

00:05:56 [Anna]

So I've been always attending Novus Ordo until about, maybe couple of years ago when my son was insisting on learning some Latin. So he was still in primary school so, obviously, he didn't have that at school. So it was a bit astonishing for me that he had this kind of, what seemed like a very odd request. So I started getting him some storybooks in Latin. I was teaching him some, whatever Latin I knew, which is not a lot, by the way. And he insisted that we go to a Latin Mass. For me, it was very difficult commitment because the Latin Mass in my parish is at the ungodly hour of 08:00 in the morning, which is very difficult on a Sunday. But we went there, and I loved it. Absolutely loved it. Following that, I went for a Latin Mass Society Latin course, partially to help myself to understand the Latin Mass better, but also to help my son to understand what's going on in the Latin Mass as well. I met Latin Mass Society members, then I went to the sewing retreat organised by the Guild of Saint Clare, which is affiliated with the Latin Mass Society. And, yes, the rest is history. You also asked what I found attractive about it is, like I said, that this kind of the fact that it's really silent, there is no - I'm very distractible, I find. So, if I have a guitar music or some kind of music that I don't like, or if the priest is looking at the congregation, I can see his gaze on me. And like I mentioned, I have social anxiety, so it's extremely distracting. So if I have a priest looking at the tabernacle and I have the music that is a Gregorian chant, which is a very ambient music. You know? It doesn't jump at you, and it's not screeching. And there are very few people who actually find aesthetics of Gregorian chant disturbing. I find it really helpful. And also when you go to Latin Mass obviously, you have a missal in front of you, and following the text actually helps me a lot to focus on the Mass. Of course, there is some transcendent aspects of it and some mystical, aesthetic things like smells and bells and chants and whatnot. But the main reason why I personally enjoy it is just because I can actually focus, and I benefit from it more. It's very pragmatic.

00:08:32 [Theresa]

That's really interesting. I I had never thought about it like that, Anna. You know, I think listeners will find that really interesting too that somebody who has traits that you have around social anxiety and being distractible and all of those things, that the difference in the Latin Mass actually works well for somebody like you.

00:08:49 [Anna]

I just find it more accessible.

00:08:52 [Theresa]

Now along the way there, you mentioned the Guild of Saint Clare, and this is a sewing guild, as you say, associated with the Latin Mass. So explain some more about that then for listeners. I think listeners will be really interested in hearing more.

00:09:04 [Anna]

So the Guild of Saint Clare was established by Lucy Shaw in 2009. That was mainly to meet the needs of the priests who say the Traditional Latin Mass. Because the Traditional Latin Mass was out of use technically for quite some time, the priests felt that, you know, they don't have - all the vestments they were using were falling apart, and they were showing signs of ageing. So Lucy started off from fixing those vestments, and then more people joined. And so the Guild was established. And now it's expanding actually. In the past couple of years, it had experienced quite a lot of growth. And currently, the Guild has nine active chapters, and one, which is launching this Saturday, will be the tenth one.

00:10:35 [Theresa]

When people meet together, you're sewing, working on vestments, so quite specialised sewing, I would imagine. And is there fellowship, you know, conversations and coffee, like you mentioned earlier? Is there also prayer around it? Is it like when people are making an icon and they pray around the processes? How do the meetings work?

00:10:45 [Anna]

So the meetings usually work in a way that the sewing meeting is a part of the prayer. So the sewing is actually the active form of prayer, which, by the way, is associated with indulgences. So there is a Latin Mass.  There is a prayer, the Guild prayer, and we make the vestments or we repair them using the hand techniques or ancient techniques. Obviously, the result of, like, chitchat, talking, and coffee, obviously. It's quite beautiful because you have part of it that is obviously helping the church to maintain the skills.

00:10:55 [Theresa]

Serving.

00:10:55 [Anna]

Yeah. It's serving. It's maintaining these ancient skills of making those investments as well as just creating community because, you know, we are a group of people who actually become very close friends, and we have similar experiences. There are many moms who do homeschooling, many moms who have very traditional Catholic families. Not everybody. Like, I'm not exactly a traditional Catholic mom, regrettably. But I find many things in common with those ladies, and it's a sense of sisterhood. Obviously, I'm not saying that it's just women who are invited in the Guild. We have many talented gentlemen who also support us and join us.

00:11:36 [Theresa]

It sounds like a beautiful opportunity for people. And I noticed when I was reading about it, and for listeners, I'll put a link to the Guild of Saint Clare in the episode notes so people can follow-up. But I noticed that the Guild supports people to do a qualification around sewing. Tell us a bit about that.

00:11:52 [Anna]

So the Guild has many events that support development of the skills. Among vestment mending days that are happening every month in London with the most experienced sewers. We also have vestment mending retreats twice a year. And once a year, we have a workshop on Opus Anglicanum which is a medieval technique originating from England, of embroidering the vestments. In fact, that was one of the biggest exports in Britain in those times. It was a very prominent art back in the day. So we have the workshop on Opus Anglicanum once a year with the Royal School of Needlework. But also the Guild, thanks to very generous benefactors, can offer scholarships and sponsorship for some members to have certificate and diploma in technical hand embroidery from the Royal School of Needlework completed. So that's another highlight, I guess.

00:12:58 [Theresa]

Well, it sounds like it's thorough, isn't it? As well as an opportunity for fellowship and making friends and building a community, like you say, there's also real skills being developed there and supported. That's great. And just for listeners who may be thinking this, because I was thinking at myself, does this mean you, you know, if there was a vestment that wasn't for a Latin Mass, might you just turn a needle and thread to that if something needs mending? Or are you only working on things for the Latin Mass?

00:13:23 [Anna]

Let's say we repair the traditional Latin Mass vestments. Occasionally, we get some modern vestment, but it's usually from a priest who says the Latin Mass as well as Novus Ordo and just happens to have that vestment to have repaired. We try to be quite sort of orthodox about it just because the Latin Mass Society has been supporting the Tridentine Mass for so long, and the Mass has been really suppressed. And it almost feels like, especially in the latest pontificate, we were, even one can say, persecuted. I can't really understand why because the excuses for suppressing Latin Mass was that the traditional Catholics just don't believe the Pope is the proper pope, which I don't  - it's not what I experienced with the contact with these members, so I'm not entirely sure where this is coming from, to be honest. So there are some kind of myths around the Latin Mass attenders that maybe needs to be defused. I hope that the new Pope will smooth out those rough edges and just bring the unity back because it would be really a great shame if the traditional Catholics were forced out the church. Because it feels like that. It's not like they want to separate from the church, but it feels that they're just being kind of marginalised and sidelined.

00:14:46 [Theresa]

Thank you for sharing that, Anna. That's really interesting. I'm glad we've had an opportunity through the podcast to talk about that because I think I was saying to you before, amongst listeners to the podcast, I think there'll be some people who love what you're saying and some people who are struggling with it, but I think it's really important to bring the conversation into the open. And I think when you speak about an experience of feeling marginalised in the church, I hope that will touch people's hearts a little bit and make us think about each other with charity.

00:15:12 [Anna]

Yes.

00:15:13 [Theresa]

And thinking of ourselves as, as still one community. And then what about in your own life? You mentioned the daily prayer of the Office being a bit challenging, but are there some prayers and practices that do work for you, that you are able to fit in around your lack of routine that support your faith?

00:15:31 [Anna]

I really like, like I mentioned, just being in presence of God. So, obviously, I don't always have opportunity to go for Adoration, but I just really like sit down in front of icon or just have a coffee with God, you know, and just talk about ups and downs in life or my worries or questions that I have. Because sometimes, you know, there are some choices I need to make. You just don't really know. Like, all the ways appear to be good, but you just want to make sure that it's the right thing. You do whatever you choose. This is how I like praying. It's pretty much prayer on a go. Recently, I've been listening to the audiobook, Interior Castle by Teresa of Avila, which pertains to prayer, which is my struggle. And I felt really strong sense that what God's want from me is actually the active way of prayer. So, like, sewing, for example, or doing something else. So I'm now trying to figure out what else I can do in my community to kind of spread the gospel. And I guess it also feeds into the domain of preaching of the Lay Dominican. Just because I'm not an excellent public speaker doesn't necessarily mean that I cannot do preaching in some other indirect ways if you want, which arguably are probably more effective in many ways.

00:17:00 [Theresa]

Yeah. I think that's right. I was thinking that earlier when you were talking about the sewing, and I meant to say there's something that can be a kind of preaching about that too, in the sense of sharing the gospel together. It doesn't have to be with people who've never heard anything about the gospel, does it? There's all sorts of ways in which we can share the gospel in our lives. I'm really interested in you having the audiobook for Saint Teresa of Avila's work because I've tried to read Saint Teresa of Avila's work and I have struggled with it, I must tell you. But an audiobook, that sounds good. That sounds like a good way in. Is she connected with the Dominicans?

00:17:35 [Anna]

She was a Carmelite. She actually, reformed the Carmelite order.

00:17:41 [Theresa]

So you've  snuck sideways there into a different - ? 

00:17:45 [Anna]

Oh, yes. I try to get inspiration from any worthy author.

00:17:50 [Theresa]

And what about scripture? Is there a a little piece of scripture that comes back to you and that shapes your life?

00:17:56 [Anna]

Well, actually, yeah. There is in Acts of Apostles, there is this moment where Saint Paul goes to Athens and makes this kind of argument about presence of God, you know, this bit with the altar to unknown god. And he says, Well, you're already worshipping, you're actually worshipping the true God. And it was really interesting to read it because it was really striking, you know, how similar to nowadays we are actually. You know, we are in a sort of very similar political and social context as Paul was 2,000 years ago. It's quite interesting to see that this sermon or this kind of argument, you could really use it nowadays. It's like it really is - it doesn't age.

00:18:48 [Theresa]

That's really interesting, Anna, because I've just been reading a book that was recommended to me called From Christendom to Apostolic Mission. Monsignor James Shea, who wrote the book, is talking about how back in the day in the West, Christendom, the values of Christianity, were embedded in our institutions and our education and communities in a way that they are not now, and in fact they're under attack, you could say, in a dramatic way. But therefore that the way we are as a Christian community in the West now is more like the time of, like you're saying, St Paul trying to talk to people who don't know anything about God, don't know anything about Jesus, and so you're not talking to people trying to help them deepen their faith necessarily, you're talking to people who have no understanding of Christianity. And so relating that to the experience of Saint Paul in a place that didn't even know what Judaism was, that Christianity came from, is exactly right. Listeners, you're getting a number of book recommendations today.  I'll put links to them in the episode notes so people can follow-up. I might just ask a little bit more about your Polish heritage. Are you still visiting Poland? And how do you find the church there compared with here and society there compared with here? You know, from the conversation we've just been having about how things have changed in the West, is there a difference between Poland and the UK?

00:20:12 [Anna]

There is a significant difference between Poland and the UK in a sense that although, you know, Poland is considered a Catholic country. So, vast majority of people will tell they are Catholics. However, a large group of those people are actually so called nominal Catholics, like my parents are. But actually, when you look at the attendance to in churches, it’s actually on a fall. So Poland is going through the motions of secularisation. Having said that, we still have quite a lot of vocations to priesthood. It's quite complex situation because they are kind of like little fractions within this Catholic church. So you have people who are committed and who are well instructed and well educated or trying to be well educated in Catholicism and be responsible Catholics. You have nominal Catholics. You have people who think they are Catholics or practising Catholics. So you have a bit of a mishmash of different things. I find in England, many people look to Poland and say, Oh, you're so lucky because there are so many Catholics in in your country. And I said, I wouldn't count so much on the numbers. The numbers in the UK are maybe less. I personally find the quality of Catholicism in in England is better.

00:21:32 [Theresa]

Oh, so maybe people who are at church here have some commitment. They're not people who came to church with cultural reasons, so we have people who are committed to their faith more.

00:21:43 [Anna]

In Poland, being Catholic is kind of taken for granted where people who don't even have opinions or lifestyle that would be considered Catholic, consider themselves Catholic. Whereas in the UK, because there is a kind of sidelining of Catholics in the UK since reformation, being the black sheep. So because being Catholic doesn't bring you any benefits in the UK, the Catholics are those who are truly committed to it, and that translates into the quality.

00:22: 14 [Theresa]

That's interesting.

00:22:16 [Anna]

By parallel, you know, when you look at the countries where Catholics are persecuted, this is where the faith is the strongest and the most nourishing because it's really authentic. And that's what speaks to people, the authenticity of it.

00:22:30 [Theresa]

That is a really interesting insight. Just while you're talking, it's reminded me about I was thinking about asking now. For me, when I think about my stereotype of people that like the Latin Mass, and it is a stereotype, which you've broken already today. Thank you. But I feel as though that's a community of people who are less connected with social action, which is what, for me, has been really important about being a Catholic, taking some action to try and help build the Kingdom of God and make the world a better place in Jesus' name. I just wonder how that strikes you, whether you can see what I mean or whether your experience is completely different or whether you just don't know why I'm focusing on that?

00:23:12 [Anna]

I'm not entirely sure. This is not my impression about the traditional Catholics. I'd even argue that the traditional Catholics are more involved and more dedicated. Like, Latin Mass Society is very active in popularising and maintaining the old rite despite all the obstacles. They survived for so many decades, which is, I think, the best testimony to the fact that the contrary is true.

00:23:44 [Theresa]

Yes. When I say social action, I mean things like supporting your local food bank, helping to welcome refugees. I'm not sure I'm putting it very well, but just how does that sound to you? People at the Latin Mass, are they looking outward to the world and thinking about how they can support others who are less fortunate in practical ways in the same way that I would experience in the Mass that I go to, the community around that?

00:24:12 [Anna]

As a Latin Mass goer, I must say that the Traditional Latin community is a lot smaller. Obviously, it will therefore be translated into less visible actions just by sheer numbers.

00:24:27 [Theresa]

Yeah.

00:24:27 [Anna]

You can't expect everyone to juggle many many responsibilities. For me, creating community, people who bond together locally, is part of my mission, is part of my, you know, apostolate. I am strong believer in the Ordo Caritatis.  So this will sound really horrible. But I find sometimes that people who are very willing to help the strangers at the same time find it very difficult to actually address and show love to the closest ones around them. And I think this is a bit of a challenge because I don't want to sound superior, but I find it more difficult to love my parents who don't have the same views rather than love, say, I don't know, an Afghan refugee. It's a lot more challenging. So I invite everyone to make a act of examination of conscience whether we make ourselves feel benevolent by chipping in £10 for CAFOD. Is it more to make us feel better? Like, at the same time, how often do we visit a grave of our relative and we clean it? What is actually how often do we visit our siblings, our parents? Are we able to forgive them their shortcomings? So I would probably start from there. When you read the rule of Saint Benedict, he's very strongly saying that the most important is the community. You know, the people around you, the community you're in, whether it's a, you know, monastic community or family or whatever. This is your training ground. This is the people who help you become holy. But at the same time, he says, invite and welcome strangers and be hospitable and charitable. Make people feel welcome, you know, treat the stranger as if it was your family, like, as if it was Christ. So I wouldn't say necessarily that the Latin Mass goers are not interested in the aspects of Catholic Social Teaching. It's that I think they are kind of more having this kind of traditional down to earth, well, you can say boring attitude to actually starting there with where it's the most relevant. But I think this is where we should start. It's, like, from yourself and people around you.

00:26:52 [Theresa]

This is an awkward bit of the conversation, isn't it? But I'm glad we've had it because I think it's really helpful for people to look at things in different ways. And I think you're so right that it is easier to go and help someone who is a stranger than sometimes to be there for the people closest to you. So Anna, thank you very much for joining me today to talk. It's been really interesting talking to you, so thank you for sharing your perspectives, and I'm sure many listeners will find that really interesting as well. And I hope that in some small way our conversation will help build some community between different groups who are Catholics in this country because I think that would be really positive. So thank you for spending some time today.

00:27:32 [Anna]

Thank you, Theresa, for inviting me. It was a pleasure to talk to you.

00:27:39 [Theresa]

Thanks so much for joining me on All Kinds of Catholic this time. I hope today's conversation has resonated with you. A new episode is released each Wednesday. Follow all kinds of Catholic on the usual podcast platforms. Rate and review to help others find it. And follow our X, Twitter, and Facebook accounts, @kindsofCatholic. You can comment on episodes and be part of the dialogue there. You can also text me if you're listening to the podcast on your phone, although I won't be able to reply to those texts. Until the next time.