63: Living out a call to holiness, with Our Lady’s help

Episode 63 Michael shares his love for Our Lady, for Jesus, and for the Eucharist. In Medjugorje, in response to prayer, he met a ‘ministry buddy.’ Then, he says, 'Our Lady put very strongly on our hearts’ the beginnings of a ministry to the gay community. Continuing this work, despite struggle, judgement and criticism, Michael explains how feast days, like the Feast of the Assumption, give him an acceleration of grace. 

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Medjugorje LGBT Ministry

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Transcript

00:00:08 [Theresa]

Listeners, it may be important for you to be aware, there's a brief mention of suicide in this episode.

You're listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro. My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of the ways we're living our faith today. Pope Francis used the image of a caravan for our travelling together on a sometimes chaotic journey. And Pope Leo, quoting Saint Augustine, reminds us, Let us live well and the times will be good. We are the times. I hope you'll feel encouraged and affirmed and maybe challenged now and then. I am too in these conversations. And if you're enjoying them, it helps if you rate and review on the platform where you're listening. Thank you.

00:01:02 [Theresa]

Listeners, thank you so much for some really good feedback after last week's episode, where I was talking to James about the Nagasaki Bell project. Today is a completely different conversation. We're going to talk about  Medjugorje and I just wanted to explain if you didn't know, that's a place of pilgrimage in Croatia where Our Lady has been appearing to visionaries. And also, just so you know, we're talking frankly today about sexuality and sex as well.

Listeners, thank you for joining this episode, which is going out around the Feast of the Assumption. And so my guest today, we're gonna talk about devotion to Our Lady among other things, but with a bit of a twist. So stay with us and let's see how the conversation goes. Welcome, Michael.

00:01:41 [Michael]

Hello, Theresa, and thank you for having me on your programme. 

00:01:41 [Theresa]

I'm really looking forward to our conversation, and I thought we might start in the middle today. I know your work, some of it is around devotion to Our Lady and around Medjugorje. So maybe you'd tell us about when you first went to what that was about, what you were looking for when you went.

00:01:45 [Michael]

I'd already fallen in love, if you like, with Our Lady way before going there. And so a lot of, I suppose, my spiritual experiences and love for Jesus, love for the Eucharist, love for Our Lady predated. I used to live in France, so I'd heard a lot of talk about, the apparitions. My uncle Thomas often spoke to me about his positive experiences there and what Our Lady was doing. But on the other hand then, I was around quite traditionalist sort of people in France, and they would claim that Medjugorje was a big hoax. Basically, it was the devil deceiving people. So I suppose I've always been the type of person to keep an open mind. But to be perfectly honest with you, Theresa, it was never on my radar. I've always had a spirituality of, Our Lady, do with me what you want. And my first experience, I have to be honest with you, was kinda negative in a way. I found it far too hot. I used to do an awful lot of Eucharistic Adoration, and so I was surprised that Adoration was only on in the chapel for a couple of hours in the middle of the day. There were people everywhere, so I found it very hard to get some peace and quiet. And I sort of, well, I said, Well, Our Lady, the five stones that you've been speaking about here in the kernel of the message, is nothing that I haven't heard before. Don't really know what all the hype is about. A year later, somebody else invited me to with a youth group. I knew it was the Holy Spirit, and part of me was like, You must be joking back into the summer heat. And this was a very different experience. I was familiar with the place. You find maybe your favourite coffee shop. You find where to sit in the church. And so over time, it becomes home. But the second time, I was there for a week. And after the week, I was praying to Our Lady saying, Well, what am I gonna do now? I've been living on Providence for years. I've had no regular source of income or no regular home. I had nowhere to go after Medjugorje. And so I said to Our Lady, well, what am I gonna do now after the week is up? And this lady who invited me, she said to me, Michael, I've been praying to Our Lady, and I think she wants you to stay on for another week. And when I stayed on for another week, it was actually a very lonely week, and maybe that kind of links back to the ministry I do in evangelisation. Catholics aren't often the best people at evangelisation, Not out of bad will, but because, Oh, we don't know this person. They're a stranger, and maybe we'd be disturbing them, leaving people alone. And so it was during the second week then that I got to know Father Leon, and he is the chaplain to the English-speaking pilgrims. And I spoke to him about my life journey, about this ministry that I felt Jesus was calling me on in terms of the whole area of sexuality, spirituality, and reaching out to people in the gay community, and the different experiences I had over the years. And basically, the terrible struggle I'd had over the years to find a home in the church and the rejection I had experienced almost in every country, as soon as I would mention the whole area of homosexuality or whatever. He was very positive, very encouraging, and he recognised that that was a big issue in the church. Then we became friends. I ended up actually staying in Medjugorje at that time for, would you believe, six months. And I guess it was over that time that I could say I fell in love with Our Lady again. She began teaching me why she brought me there. I mean, Our Lady isn't confined by Medjugorje. She began showing me the significance of Medjugorje these days and how, if you like, it's sort of like her headquarters. I remember one of the images she used is, like, because I like technology - she said, Well, you know, you have an iPhone or a - I have a Samsung - I can't afford the iPhone. But you have an iPhone 10, and all of a sudden you want to upgrade it to an iPhone 11. And how it is with the apparition sites that you have places like Lourdes and Fatima. And each one is for a particular generation, a particular time in history. And while they don't suddenly get obsolete, the message of Medjugorje is the most recent update. I really began understanding the significance of Medjugorje at an international level, and also then why it is significant in terms of the ministry I'm doing, and why from there she wanted to make that my base. I was praying to Our Lady saying, That's all well and good, but I'm not an angel. And I live a very lonely life at times because as soon as I mention the gay issue, I go from Top of the Pops to bottom of the charts. And so I said to Our Lady, Surely there are other Catholics that are comfortable and confident in talking about things like same sex attraction and at the same time are prayerful. One day, I was walking up Cross Mountain, and this guy was coming down the mountain, and he says something like, Oh, I'd like to meet that guy. He seems kinda different or something. Anyone who knows Seamus, he's not known for being quiet or timid. So a couple of days later, we happened to meet for a coffee. And he had, in some ways, a very different story than mine. In other ways, very similar. He had been twenty years in the gay scene, drugs, sex, things that I've never done, to be honest with you. We both had the same heart for reaching out to the gay community. We were totally different characters, like chalk and cheese, but somehow it worked. And so from then, both Seamus and I were praying at the Blue Cross, and we said to Our Lady, What do we do? Where do we go? And so we got this very clear image of, like, Medjugorje being the well and full of water, and that then what you do, you bring water, like, to the fire. And so she put it very strongly on our hearts to start travelling around the whole area of Bosnia, Herzegovina, Croatia. And so we started off  - very little money. We went to Mostar for a day, and we started reaching out to people in the gay community. Now bearing in mind, we're both familiar with the gay community, so we knew how to go about that, start meeting gay people and stuff like that. And so as you can imagine, we got terribly criticised because certain people and even people in Medjugorje, they suddenly thought that the devil had got hold of us and that we were back into the gay lifestyle and looking for hookups and sex online and all sorts of stuff. And even Father Leon, who had been very supportive, he suddenly totally flipped on us. Kinda just showed me the humour of Our Lady at times, but also the cross of this ministry. One can go very quickly from being popular to unpopular. Nobody will give out to you if you're praying for prostitutes, if you're praying for gay people, if you're praying for, I don't know, drug dealers. They'll applaud you for praying for people. But if you start talking to people, reaching out to them, being friends with them, you will get slaughtered. Why are you talking to that person? He did this. They did that. And the only reason then, of course, you will be talking to a drug dealer is because you're looking for drugs. And so in our case then, the only reason you're talking to gay people is because you're looking for fun, you know, and sexual stuff. But from there, anyway, we got just so blessed. We were meeting person after person after person. They were just so interested. And even in the Balkans area, we met so many Muslims. And it was actually surprising how open the Muslims were to God's love. They do believe in Our Lady in terms of Miriam, the mother of Jesus, and they recognize Our Lady as somebody important even if not Mother of God. They had no problem at all saying, Well, we'll ask Miriam to help you or ask Mary to help you. They often lived an awful lot of suffering, shame, and perhaps even more shame and more suffering than a lot of Catholics because for Muslims, the whole gay area can even be more extreme. In some places, people could get killed over that. From there, anyway, we kinda continued our prayer life and talking to people as best we could about Jesus. A lot of the time, just sharing our own experience, our own life, sharing about the supernatural, sharing about, God's love for everybody, bringing those people to adoration with us, praying for them in our hearts, bringing them to Mass and stuff. We realised that part of our ministry as well was just as much evangelising and trying to educate the Catholic community as to what we were doing and what the real issues were in terms of gay people and their actual struggles and how, as Catholics, we needed to be more open and pastoral and kind. And, like, there's a verse in scripture and it says, you know, You place heavy burdens on people, but you don't lift a finger to help them. And I often meditate on that scripture when it comes to some Catholics who almost expect gay people to be squeaky clean virgins overnight and yet don't lift a finger in terms of pastoral care to assist them on the journey.

00:10:04 [Theresa]

I'm just thinking about we'll come back into that about Catholic people themselves. I think that's really interesting. But I just wanted to go back to when you're reaching out to gay people, inviting them into to the church, to the sacramental life of the church, to prayer - people who have felt excluded and marginalized. Did you find people's hearts were open, or were they a bit resistant at first? Couldn't quite believe that God would want them. How did you find people responded to your invitation?

00:10:33 [Michael]

On that case, you get a mixed bag. People are people, whether it's gay people or straight people, I think it's similar. There are some people that just couldn't care less one way or the other. I mean, anybody doing evangelisation experiences that. And I suppose some people maybe have been just so hurt by the Church and so consumed in sort of a secular lifestyle they're just not interested. The thought of going back to church, the thought of going to Confession, the thought of Mass isn't an issue. And then for other people then, they were mesmerised in in a way and extremely interested, very open to what we had to say. Perhaps in general, it's more sowing seeds and leaving it with people. You don't really know afterwards what the Holy Spirit is doing. So it's not unusual for me to meet people for maybe two years later, one year later. They contact me and say, Your story really helped me. But you often actually don't know. And one of the things that I felt Jesus saying is we have to kinda let go. There are not maybe enough priests that pastor enough in the whole gay area. At times, when I met people and I knew that they would like to go to Mass or go to Confession, often a struggle for me has been, Well, where can I bring them that they will meet a priest or meet someone that I can introduce that isn't gonna be too harsh, but on the other hand, isn't gonna be too liberal either? And I found Jesus in a way, meeting me where I was at in that, and just kinda saying, Remove the pressure thinking that we have to bring people to a sacramental life. Of course, it'll be nice if they did. I've often felt Jesus saying that before that's gonna happen in Mass, the Church has to move forward at an international level in terms of welcoming LGBT people into a sacramental life and being pastoral. And I suppose that's what Pope Francis was trying to initiate in the synod, and hopefully, it's what Pope Leo will continue. Otherwise, we still meet here in London, LGBT people that would like to go to Confession are still petrified. They tell me about the negative experiences they had maybe twenty years ago, or they tell me even a negative experience they had perhaps more recently. I have to be honest with you. It is very, very tricky. We have always just taken the approach of just preaching by example. I've often thought of Mother Teresa as being one of the images that has often come to me over the years in terms of this ministry. She was saying to Jesus, Look. Here I am washing the sores of Muslims and Hindus. They're never gonna convert. They're never gonna become a Catholic. What on earth am I even doing with my life? Is this even a ministry? And I've often felt the same sort of spirituality at times. I've been out doing evangelisation in the gay scene, talking to people, praying for people, interceding for people. And sometimes I've said the same thing to Jesus. What on earth am I doing? Is there anybody here even listening to me? Is anybody interested? And I just feel him smiling on me saying, That's my business. Your business is to be faithful, to pray, to intercede. We just don't know the power of our prayers, the power of our intercession. Might be on their deathbed that Jesus will come along and he'll say, There have been graces set aside for you by someone who prayed a prayer for you, said a Mass for you thirty years ago. God has kinda given me eternal eyes, if I use that expression, for this ministry. If we were to start doing ministry and approving ourselves by the amount of fruits that we see, we might give up very, very soon.

00:13:53 [Theresa]

People doing evangelising work, I think that will resonate, won't it? It's made me think, actually, because I often say to people that I'm talking to on the podcast, where they're talking about fruits of their work, I'm saying, Oh, isn't it wonderful to see the fruits? I must say I haven't got the eternal eyes that you have. I am very much thinking, Oh, yes. Oh, good. There's a fruit. That's someone doing the right thing. You've made me think differently about that.

00:14:15 [Michael]

Yeah. Well, thanks for that.

00:14:16 [Theresa]

Tell us a bit more about your ministry then because before we started recording, you were talking about this very interesting, tricky situation you're in where people on the one hand are not pleased, people on the other hand are not pleased because of the approach that you're taking in your ministry. So tell us a bit about that. I think listeners will be interested.

00:14:32 [Michael]

As a gay person myself, or gay Catholic, or someone with same sex attraction, when I met Jesus at the start, I mean, I was chronically depressed in my early twenties, and I had this light in me that said, The glory of God is man fully alive. What is man fully alive for a same sex attracted person? That brought me on my own life journey. And at the start when I met Jesus, I believed at the start in a certain flavour of maybe not so much conversion therapy, but that in the ideal world, I would have been straight. Because a lot of Catholics teach that, a lot of priests teach that, and it seems pretty reasonable after a while. Didn't really bother me in any case because I did believe in the call to sexual purity, and so I was living a chaste life. And so after a good few years of following Jesus, I said to him, There's something missing here. I've got a prayer life. I've got Mass. I've got rosary. I've got confession. At a human level, there's something missing. At the time, I was living in Australia, and I knew a good few men as well who had a similar experience. They were active in the homosexual life. They had a conversion experience. And then afterwards, they were single people, and they were living fairly prayerful lives. Nearly all of them are struggling still with the remnants of depression, with loneliness, and often porn and stuff. I often said to myself, This isn't full life. It's better than obviously being in sex or drug addiction. And I said to Jesus, Show me what's missing. And I met some other Catholic person, and we became very close friends. And I experienced with that person a lot of intimacy without any sexual intimacy, to be honest with you. There, I basically understood from Jesus the difference between same sex love and same sex sex. I got this image of same sex attraction or gayness like an apple. The apple being half beautiful and half, I suppose you could say, rotten. I felt Jesus saying to me, the healthy attraction that you can experience towards men is the good side of it. You see a flower, you love the flower. And men are made by God, Jesus himself, man. And so I felt Jesus saying same sex attraction isn't in itself evil. In fact, there's lots of sides, but it's very good. But then he showed me the rotten side was all the lust and all that sort of stuff that goes with it. Wow. This is actually what I hadn't understood up to now, but it's also what a lot of Catholics don't understand. Then a lot of Catholics who leave totally and completely the gay world, they see all their same sex attraction or all their gayness as something intrinsically evil. They walk around with a kind of chip on their shoulders, almost feeling bad for being attracted to another man. Whereas Jesus was showing me, No. It's good to be attracted to another man. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just how you express that attraction is the problem. This actually begins to make sense. And from there, I understood that we can be gay in a holy way. Like I say to people, you can be right handed or left handed. That isn't the issue. But afterwards, it's learning to write between the lines. When I moved to London, I met a lot of people who were gay and who had partners. What one realises very quickly, that there's a lot of gay people who have partners that live perfectly chaste lives. Any sex they may have been having often fades out after a couple of years. They have got the partnership. They have got the love. They've got the support. Jesus finally revealed to me that his plan for gay people isn't to be miserable and to live these kind of repressed, hidden, single lives, unless, of course, they have a specific calling from the Holy Spirit to be single. That there's nothing wrong with same sex relationships as long as Jesus is in that relationship and that those people are striving for holiness. Of course, it, brought a lot of controversy because the fact that maybe you're, I'm saying yes to same-sex relationships, but at the same time, yes to call to holiness, including a call to sexual responsibility and purity. For some gay people then, that's some red rag to a bull. You know, some people don't agree with that, and they - just like in the straight scene, I suppose - some people want as much sex as they can have. The more conservative Catholics who perhaps the only sin they see is sex, maybe perhaps see everything same sex attracted as intrinsically disordered, then they think that's been far too nice and far too liberal. A lot of controversy. There comes a certain point that you grow out of caring. For me, it's clear that it's an issue that the Church has never properly addressed. That is kind of the struggle, and that's why the Church is now having a very difficult time having any credibility among the gay community when the church hasn't adequately helped them or supported them. And there's also an immense amount of gay priests. And it's why I often feel in my heart when I pray, the Holy Spirit saying to me, Well, until the church actually addresses the gay issues within the church itself, it's really isn't in any position to reach out with any credibility to the world. I feel Jesus just wants to lift the lid of the pot, lift the taboo, lift the shame, help people in Mass, really, that are struggling with all this shame, depression, anxiety, and often people end up taking their lives, drug addiction, sex addiction. The gay community and the church community, they're not like oil and water that they don't mix. There's an awful lot of the gay community in the clergy. There's an awful lot of the gay community in the church. As Catholics, I feel we have to be very humble. Jesus isn't trying to shame us here, but he is trying to move this issue forward. It can be easier at times to offer Masses and to say 20 rosaries than to actually address the pastoral issues. I think that's what has started with Pope Francis. These ministries, they're hitting on a lot of wounds, and they're also hitting on a lot of compromise and a lot of hypocrisy from the inside. You know?

00:20:09 [Theresa]

That's very powerful, Michael. What I was just thinking while you were talking there about wounds - sometimes I think some people in the church feel that they're the ones who are having this struggle, what to do about gay people who want to be Catholics. But actually gay people, their wounds are real and they're the ones who really are struggling to find a way to be part of the church.

00:20:30 [Michael]

Oh, yeah.

00:20:31 [Theresa]

Like you say, live a life of holiness and be supported, and maybe that's where our focus should be. There's a great deal of heart in the way you speak about the LGBT community.

00:20:41 [Michael]

Some Catholics meaning well, they'll say to me, Oh, it's a terrible cross. It's awful being gay. And I might be thinking, But it's not. It's great. I'm perfectly happy being gay. I love it. And I mean that in a holy sense because some people interpret being gay as living the gay lifestyle. I'm talking about here about orientation. The cross of being gay is the other people that judge, that condemn, that on one hand, they say, You're welcome to the church, but on other hand, they don't want to know you. They don't want to listen to what you have to say. They don't want to understand the difficulties. Totally against any form of relationship. It's the prejudice. It's the judgment. It's the hypocrisy. It's the double standards. It's the gossip. Being excluded. And, really, I feel Jesus is saying, It's the church community that needs the change of heart. You know, I hear people and all they talk about is mortal sin. To be a mortal sin, it has to be a grave sin, and someone has to have intention, pure free will, etcetera, knowledge to commit that sin. The amount of, maybe, sexual sin in the gay community, but you see that in the backdrop of all the wounds, of all the abuse, of all the ostracization, of all the rejection from family. In God's eyes, all those extenuating circumstances plead his mercy, plead his compassion. Other Catholics who are being judgmental and stuff, that was the biggest offense. When we read the Bible, Jesus didn't hop on about any of the big issues today such as abortion or homosexuality, not taking away from, you know, the serious aspects of those things. But what he always went to town on was hypocrisy and judging others. It infuriates and grieves the Holy Spirit in my experience when very prayerful people, often very Catholic people who may be very good in other sides of their life, when they're so bitter and so angry and so judgmental when it comes to gay people. And unfortunately, see gay people and bringing gay people into the church, as the work of the devil, like Satan infiltrating the church and trying to destroy the family. And yet gay people, we are part of the family.

00:22:37 [Theresa]

Yeah. Amen.

00:22:38 [Theresa]

Amen.

00:22:39 [Theresa]

For listeners, I'll put a link to your ministry in the episode notes so people can follow-up and see more and hear more from you and the people that you work with. So you found a home in London now, a parish there I understand. What is your working week like? What does your ministry look like on the ground now?

00:22:56 [Michael]

It continues to be a mix of prayer, outreach, evangelisation, counselling. I could give you an example of my last twenty four hours. This year, we have been going out more to the local gay bars. And so last night, Seamus and a friend, Seamus, my buddy in ministry, we went out to the bar and we started singing karaoke, which is quite fun. Just a bit like Jesus among the people. You get to know the people, and we get to know them. They get to know us. I met a contact there last night. He told me about a French friend of his who's a priest, and he would like to contact me. So this morning, I actually got an email from that person. He's in contact with me about somebody else who's having struggles with depression and the gay scene. So that already this morning has taken up a bit of my time in writing emails, responding, praying about those situations. There's obviously daily prayer. So, usually, most mornings, I spend an hour or two in prayer, and then afterwards, go to Mass as well. I'm also looking after my mind, body, spirit. So I've become a gym bunny as well. Even at the gym, ministry opens up because I have people coming up to me at the gym saying, Michael, will you pray for this person? Will you pray for that person? Will you do this? Will you do that? Evangelisation is blended through my whole entire life. When we're doing normal things as well, it's in the context of those things that actually people feel far more comfortable sharing. Anyway, afternoon time then can be a mix of answering phone calls, intercession, prayer. But, also, I spend quite a bit of time seeking Jesus for the ongoing healing of some of my own wounds. The first person that you have to bring to Jesus for evangelisation and conversion is yourself. Anyway, some meetings, meeting people, evangelising, organising projects. Recently, we were at the gay pride thing, so I had all that to organise. Trying to get suitable banners and rosaries and trying to make it accessible for gay people and not too infuriating for the Catholics. As I said earlier, one of the big aspects of my ministry as well, it's also trying to open the hearts of the Catholic community to joining me, to helping. I’ve a great love for the charismatic renewal. And yet, a lot of those people, they just don't understand the dilemma for gay people. And so I do spend quite a bit of my time, whether it's writing or blogging or videos, trying to make material to help people to love the gay community and to help people to understand and to help people to be more considerate, more at peace with us. 

00:25:18 [Theresa]

That's given us a real flavour of your work. I can see many, many gifts there that the Lord has blessed you with for this work. You seem just the right person to be doing this work.

00:25:28 [Michael]

But most of the time, I think it's the total opposite.

00:25:30 [Michael]

I think that's part of it, isn't it?

00:25:32 [Michael]

It is true. Yeah.

00:25:33 [Theresa]

I feel we're drawing to a close, Michael, and I just wanted to ask you, as this episode is going out around the Feast of the Assumption, how do you mark the Feast of the Assumption for your ministry? Is it something you talk about around that time with the people you're reaching out to, or is that a bit too much detail for them? Is it just about you making sure you go to Mass, spend some time in prayer?

00:25:51 [Michael]

It's a mix of everything. So we have a special WhatsApp group and ministry group. So for people who are really interested in prayer, they join that group. So on that particular group, lots of other people, not just me, will share about the Assumption. Reaching out to other people, perhaps it might not be the first thing that would come to mind. On these feast days, Our Lady, she kinda gives us an acceleration of grace. You might not be into video games, but I remember as a kid, I'd be playing a video game, and you'd be running along and you hit a certain box and, boom, your little character goes 20 times faster, but then ten minutes later, it's back to the normal speed. The greatest grace we could give Our Lady on any big feast, really, is more of our hearts. It's more of our yes. It's more of our surrender.  It's more of our soul. It's more of our fear, more of our anxieties. That Jesus may increase and that we may decrease. And so I often find on these feasts that I get this kind of accelerated grace of, just increase in love and joy, then perhaps if I'm going out that evening to the bar, I may not end up speaking about the Assumption. I will definitely feel this extra drive of her love. And with that, then conversations open up. Our Lady, she has just such a gentle way of working. It’s all about the heart. It's a slower journey than just knowing what the Assumption is intellectually from a book. A lot of people love Our Lady. You know, she's not boring. As Catholics, we can be so used to seeing statues of Our Lady, and we sort of think that in heaven, we'll all almost be like statues. And I try to say to people, If you could only realise heaven has far more energy and far more life than on Earth. All of us, gay, straight, whatever. We have to go from the head to the heart, from seeing Our Lady as being this distant figure in heaven interceding for us to knowing that she's also spiritually with us here on earth, very, very close to us. Angels are around us. The supernatural is around us. It's only a breath away. Jesus said I'm closer to you than you are to yourself. We're being invited into having a very close personal relationship with Jesus, with Mary, through the Holy Spirit.  And that can really only happen through knowing, not just about, but knowing Jesus and Mary experientially from the heart, slowing down. And so I'm really praying, yeah, that the Feast of the Assumption, that there will be great fruits for everybody, not just for me or for gay people, but for every person.

00:28:16 [Theresa]

Michael, that's wonderful. That's a fitting end to this episode for the Feast of the Assumption.

00:28:21 [Michael]

I would just say anybody out there, whether you're in the LGBT community yourself or whether you have a son, a daughter, and maybe you're a mother, you're a grandmother, and you're petrified, you're terrified, trust in God's mercy. Fear does not come from the Holy Spirit. If you're struggling, God loves you. God loves your son. God loves your daughter. God loves your mother. God loves your brother. Trust God has got fantastically good plans for every single soul, including every single LGBT soul. Let go. Let God. Let Our Lady. She's our Mother. And while this might be a mystery to man, it's no mystery at all to God. She wants every soul to feel her peace, her joy, and to let Our Lady do the mothering.

00:29:05 [Theresa]

What beautiful words. I have really enjoyed our conversation, and I hope listeners will find something there that really supports them and helps them in their thinking and in their relationship with others and in their relationship with God, and with Our Lady. Thank you so much, Michael.

00:29:20 [Michael]

Well, thank you very much, Theresa, for having me on.

00:29:27 [Theresa]

Thanks so much for joining me on All Kinds of Catholic This Time. I hope today's conversation has resonated with you. A new episode is released each Wednesday. Follow All Kinds of Catholic on the usual podcast platforms. Rate and review to help others find it. And follow our X/ Twitter, and Facebook accounts, @KindsofCatholic. You can comment on episodes and be part of the dialogue there. You can also text me if you're listening to the podcast on your phone, although I won't be able to reply to those texts. Until the next time.