70: The celebration of Holy Mass - where heaven and earth meet

Episode 70: A special episode from Padley Martyrs' Chapel. Gerard and Anne-Marie share the incredible history and spirituality of this 'thin place.' Amid the physical signs of our faith and its preciousness to previous generations, the importance of Mass shines through. We speak of the working of the Holy Spirit in the present as much as in the past. 'People come here to pray...they can pray easily here.'

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Padley Martyr's Chapel

Contact:  friendsofpadley@hallam-diocese.com

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The podcast is kindly supported by the Passionists of St Patrick's Province, Ireland & Britain and by CAFOD.

Music: Greenleaves from Audionautix.com

Transcript

 You're listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro. My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of ways we're living our faith today. Pope Francis used the image of a caravan for our travelling together on a sometimes chaotic journey. And Pope Leo, quoting St Augustine, reminds us, Let us live well and the times will be good. We are the times. I hope you'll feel encouraged and affirmed and maybe challenged now and then.  I am too in these conversations. And if you're enjoying them, it helps if you rate and review on the platform where you're listening.  Thank you.

Before getting into this episode listeners, I do hope you're enjoying the variety of conversations that make up this podcast as much as I am. Today's conversation is completely different from last week's conversation about the Latin Mass. And this time, right at the end, there's some information about developments in the podcast, which I hope you'll be interested to hear about. When I made the episode about the National Jubilee Pilgrimage of Hope, I said I would return to Padley Chapel. And here I am today on the feast of Our Lady of Walsingham, back in Padley Martyrs' Chapel. And I'm joined by Gerard and Anne-Marie. And we're going to talk about the chapel itself in much more detail than I was able to before. And I just want to start by saying that what really touched my heart when I was here and the reason I came back, there is this amazing history of this place where, Blessed Nicholas Garlick and Robert Ludlam were taken from here and killed horribly because they were priests saying Mass. And that was only part of the amazing Catholic history of this place. But right up to the present, this is a place in which there is prayer, there is Mass said, it is a beautifully kept chapel, honouring that huge Catholic heritage of this place.  We've just prayed a decade of the Rosary together in this beautiful place. And now we're going to just share with you a bit more about the history and how it continues to touch the lives of Catholic people, particularly Gerard and Anne-Marie joining us for this conversation. So Gerard, thank you for joining me. 

Thank you for coming, Theresa. 

So tell us a bit about the wider history of Padley Martyrs' Chapel then. I know that, you know, we could talk for hours about that, but just maybe focussing on things that really speak to you. 

The site itself goes all the way back to Anglo-Saxon times. You've got the Beauchief Abbey canons of Sheffield with a grange farm here. They would have celebrated Mass. You have the Eyres establishing this gatehouse  in a refurbished Manor around 1450. And I think at that time, Joan Eyre dedicated this building, the gatehouse itself, and particularly this upper floor, dedicated it to Our Lady and her protection at the time of the Black Death raging around the country - and having her babies quite possibly in this building on this upper floor itself, but all calling upon the protection of Our Lady. You then move forward into the penal times of the Tudor era  and you have the Fitzherberts and the Eyres of the Hope Valley maintaining the Mass  in opposition to the law and giving shelter to priests coming through the Hope Valley. It's more than possible that St Edmund Campion in his mission year 1580 to 81 came through the Hope Valley. He was familiar with the Fitzherberts. And then, of course, in the late 1580s with the Armada coming, and the tension across the nation, Padley was raided on the 12th of July and the Earl of Shrewsbury from Sheffield Castle found John Fitzherbert who was a member of the middling gentry who was paying his fines but on that day they also found two priests Nicholas Garlick and Robert Ludlam. Those two priests, John, three or four of his children and ten of the household were herded down the River Derwent, which is just below Padley Chapel, all the way to Derby county jail. Those two priests were martyred on St Mary's Bridge on the 24th of July 1588. The faith history is so rich in this area with particular emphasis upon the preservation of Mass. So Matilda Fitzherbert is three years in Derby Jail. It's full of epidemic typhus. She survives. What does she do? She comes out and her response to her family being blown apart, her daddy dying, John Fitzherbert, in the Fleet prison, her uncle a year later - her response is to have Mass said. She moves up to Netherhurst Farm and she maintains a Mass House. We've got the details of priests who visited there. And that was her response to the trauma her family had faced. It was about the preservation and celebration of the Holy Mass. 

That is a fantastic start, Gerard, and I hope some people listening will recognise some family names there that mean something to them and certainly the history of this area. I've spoken to guests before on the podcast who know that their heritage stretches back to Catholic people in this part of the world. Just for you then, what is it, are you able to capture in words?  What is it about knowing this history and this rich heritage that we have? What is it about that that speaks to your faith today? 

Yeah, I mean, I'm a historian. Did my history degree, Medieval and Modern History degree at Sheffield University. I was a teacher for 33 years, teaching history. And that might have clued me up to being interested in Padley. But above all, I think one of the great strengths of our faith tradition, our Catholic faith identity, is the physicality of our faith. From our altars, our rosary beads, all of the senses are engaged when you're attending Mass. From listening to the word of God, incense from the thurible and ultimately, of course, the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Mass. For me, it's the physicality  - and this building itself is just one ongoing part of an ongoing story of the physicality of prayer, but with a celebration of the Holy Mass at the centre of it. 

Now, listeners, while Gerard was talking, you were gesturing towards the altar there in this chapel and I hope we'll return to talk about altars later in the episode because I know there's more to say. But Anne-Marie, what is your connection with Padley? What is it that speaks to you about Padley? 

I suppose I've always been drawn to Padley as a holy place.  Quite often people talk these days, it's much more common, recognising thin places. As people have become more in touch with nature and Celtic traditions. Re-emergence of pilgrimage. People are talking about thin places and I'm one of those people who are very sensitive to the holy. I've always had that sense of, when I come to Padley it puts me in a state of prayer. Actually I suppose my real deep connection with this to do with Holy Mass and the importance of Holy Mass that Gerard was speaking about is that in 2011 I went on a pilgrimage to Medjugorje and I had a full-blown mystical experience of the Real Presence of Jesus through the Eucharist connecting me with God the Father's love. So complete understanding, complete love like I'd never experienced on this earth from anyone or anything.  And so the cells of my body were left with a knowledge of ultimate love, the true source, God the Father's love through Jesus, through the Eucharist. And therefore through thick and thin - and I have worked for the Church and seen every dimension of it - I know that the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, in Holy Mass,  needs to be preserved and celebrated and promoted.  I also am sensitive to distortions of holy things, where things aren't holy. At Padley there is a purity here which I think is a grace because of the sacrifice of this family  and the two priests. So God won't let death and torture and suffering be the final word. He will bring about much greater things. He will bring about miracles and glory. He will sustain things above and beyond whatever the world throws at it. So there's something about Padley that is like a relic  of Holy Mass. Almost like a time portal that goes back to the old faith of this land.  And it's not just me that feels it. Every time we volunteer here as Friends of Padley, people come in, from just walkers passing by, people turn up from all over the place, different parts of the country, visiting local friends, like you said, you've got people connected with people from different parts of the world. Many people have no faith or are lapse Catholics  or are worshipping other religions  and people  sense that this is a very spiritually holy place even if they can't name what it is. The fascinating thing is conversation usually ends up around the Mass. Is Mass still said here? We'd say, Well yes it is. We have an annual pilgrimage and we have special Masses said here. Often I would look at the person who seemed to have a hunger in their eyes and in their voice and I'd say, Are you Catholic? And they'd say, No. And I'd say, Well, if we had a Mass for everyone, would you come? Oh yes. One of my dreams, that I've shared with various members of the clergy in the Hallam Diocese is to encourage priests to come from all over the country to pray the Mass because the priests have got so many responsibilities here, they can't perpetually say the Mass at Padley.  And to develop some sort of retreat house for priests, a bit like Garlick and Ludlam would have had, so that they can be restored here, away from worrying about managing a parish and leaky roofs and maintenance. Just come here and really connect deeply again with their anointing, their primary core calling to be priests. To pray the Mass with the doors open, they can bring parishioners or we can invite Catholics along but with the doors wide open so that anybody who wants to come in will actually experience where heaven and earth meet, the Holy Mass. And if God wants to speak through any physical element of Holy Mass, as Gerard was saying, to those people, this will be a place where it can be done. 

That is beautiful and there's so much there to respond to. For listeners, just to say, I'm not sure we made it clear that Padley Martyrs' Chapel is in the Peak District, and I would say when I came first a couple of weeks ago, it is Peak Peak District. It is a really, really beautiful spot. I like your naming the purity of this place. I think that's helped me think more clearly about it. I was describing it as well-kept here, but I think there is certainly a purity, a clarity about this place. It speaks of the Mass and it speaks of being a Catholic then and now in a way  that has really reached me and I'm sure as you're describing, lots of people who walk in the door. I think that connection with priests being refreshed here is very fitting and I hope people are hearing that and sharing that and helping to make that a reality. I wonder if we might, as we're talking so much about the Mass, return to the altars then, Gerard. There's a special story around the altar stone here, isn't there? I wonder if you would share that? 

Well, the altar stone that we can see here is Pre-Reformation. You see the five crosses  carved into the altar surface.  It's likely to’ve been here from around 1450 when this gatehouse with its chapel was established. Come the 16th century with the tensions of the Spanish Armada, the house was raided on Candlemas Day in February 1588. I think the Fitzherbert family at that time, they knew they had to start protecting their faith heritage and particularly things like the priest vestments, the Opus Anglicanum embroideries, plus the altar. So a friend of mine who is a sculptor of stone, guesstimated that to be a three quarters of a ton gritstone altar. Somewhere between February 1588 and July 1588, when it was raided and the Blessed were found, it was moved through the building and buried at the back of the site. I think it's a little bit of a Via Dolorosa tale to it, moving a three quarters of a ton altar out through the building and then burying it to preserve it. Because certainly reformers, Protestant reformers and Puritans in the 17th century would have smashed it. They would have thought it offensive to God. So it was buried for protection. The people who buried it knew where it was. This site itself for six years was owned by Richard Topcliffe, Elizabeth I's top priest hunter. He owned Padley for six years. So for all of the holiness of the building, for six years, it seems to all the people in the Hope Valley, all was lost. But they kept the secret of the altar hidden. Matilda Fitzherbert, jailed in Derby for three years, came out and what does she do? Established a Mass house up at Netherhurst Farm, still there today above Hathersage. And we do think that she used what the diocese also has, which is a 16th century Catholic recusant altar table and that it moved around the Mass houses and was used in this chapel itself quite possibly.  Mass was continued to be celebrated. So for 345 years, the altar remained buried and then Monsignor Charles Payne, God love him, his mortal remains are buried below us. He was a Monsignor of the Nottingham Diocese. He was inspired late 1920s, early 30s, We've got to buy this place back for the Catholic faith. Early 30s, economic depression, a hard time to be raising money to buy places. But that's what he achieved. He engaged with people across dioceses and Padley was brought back to the faith. He didn't know the altar was buried out in the back. When the first pilgrimage was here in 1898, they didn't know the altar was buried here. But when they were clearing the back of the site, the altar was identified and it was brought back into the chapel in 1934, reconsecrated and so once again Mass started to be said. Being a history teacher, 1933 is when Hitler seized power in Germany and all the evils that followed of World War II, the Holocaust, the Shoah. It was an amazing time for altars to be emerging. The same thing happened in Burghwallis, St Helens Burghwallis, Anglican communion. They found their altar underneath their floor. The Shrewsbury Chapel in Sheffield Cathedral has a Catholic pre-reformation altar handed over to the cathedral in the 1930s and they have lovingly cared for it and preserved it ever since. Altars in our Catholic faith tradition  are  a meeting place. Anne-Marie talked about thin places. Well, the whole idea of the altar is that in itself it's worthy of reverence, but it's where the holy sacrifice of the Mass is celebrated and it's where heaven and earth  meet.  And that's what we have in our altar here. 

That is an amazing story, isn't it, Gerard? And while you were speaking, I was imagining the joy and surprise of the workers finding that altar, but it's interesting to make that connection with the political times. 

Yeah.

We're very lucky that you know these stories of other altars in the area too. And for listeners, there'll be some pictures of these amazing things on the social media that goes with this episode. If you don't make it to Padley yourself, and I recommend you do try, you'll at least be able to see some of the things we're talking about. Now, I wonder, Anne-Marie, if you might connect us back to modern day. We were talking before about relics.  I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about how relics speak to you and relics in this place.

Relics, I suppose, help make present spiritual realities. It's a physical thing that helps make present spiritual realities. I used to work for the church, to help people find their charisms,  the gifts of the Holy Spirit. And there are many. There are organisational charisms, teaching, communication charisms. There's also the charism of intercessory prayer. That's one of my charisms, so somebody with a charism of intercessory prayer will  naturally find prayer quite easy and you think that's normal but when you speak to other people that haven't got the charism you realise it's a gift. When you're an intercessor your heart gets bothered by certain things that you feel compelled to pray for, sometimes for short periods of time, sometimes extensive periods of time. And this is relating back to relics in the sense of the saints. As an intercessor, different saints are put on your radar to get to know. Even martyrs, I've had a whole load of martyrs come onto my radar since moving back north from the south. The reason why saints  are so important for intercessors is because  they have now transcended the physicality of the earth and they are with Jesus in heaven, have various missions and are patrons of various things. They can rocket fuel an intercessor's prayer. They can really bring about things that we on earth can't possibly do, make changes and miracles. So if an intercessor comes into contact with a relic of a particular saint, it just makes it that bit more physical. You can touch the relic. You can really connect in a powerful way with a real person that walked the earth and lived life like you do, but now have the glory of being in heaven. 

Thank you, Anne-Marie. I thought you were going to be the right person. Relics can be difficult for some Catholics, you know, and people listening, I'm sure there'll be some people who are very comfortable and some people who are less comfortable. So it's really interesting to hear you frame it around the different charisms that people have and what really connects for some people…Listeners, we've moved outside the chapel now, we're standing in some of the grounds which are, well I would call it paved, but you'll know better Gerard, but tell us a little bit about what we can see here and what may have happened here all those years ago.

 Yeah, we're standing in the ruins of Padley Manor. We're looking at the gatehouse  with its chapel on the first floor and the only reason why that survived being pulled down like the rest of the site was because it had function, it was a barn. We've got a lovely photo in 1931 of the last cows leaving the barn. So that's the reason for the survival of that building. But the rest of the site here, you can see it was dismantled, sometime in the 1670s to sell this dress stone. But you still have this very clear outline of where the courtyard was tumbling down to the gatehouse itself. We cleared this in the late 90s, early 2000s of grass, hopefully help the bishops not slip when they were doing our inter-diocesan pilgrimage. But here we are standing at the front door of what would have been the living quarters of the manor house itself. So imagine yourself early morning in the summer of July 1588 and I've got this sense here of people like Matilda standing at the doorway looking out over the courtyard early summer's morning. Servants brushing away free-blown summer grass that's coming in onto the site and then in amidst all of that we have the raid taking place and we have maybe 30, 40, 50 men fully surrounding the building, hunting dogs, shouting, banging, shots,  gunfire to let the household know that they were  all under arrest. And so from that moment stood here, the Fitzherberts knew - and they had the sense of it. They moved the altar. They preserved the elements of those physical elements of their faith - they knew a new phase in the life of their family's history was just about to begin.

 Thank you, Gerard. Standing here, that really brings to life the horror of what happened here and how hard it was to be a Catholic in those times. How frightening to continue your faith in some ways. You've mentioned before about this Richard Topcliffe hunting priests.

And Richard Topcliffe wanted Padley. So here's another element in the mix of the events here at Padley Chapel. He came out with the Earl of Shrewsbury and they are all out here on that summer's morning. I think the important thing about the story of people's faith and the commitment to it, part of it is, you know, events in our world history. We  always say, Where is God? Why isn't this being stopped?  I personally think God's sense of time doesn't fit with our sense of time. Topcliffe was here for best part of six years.  All of the people in the locality would have thought that their faith was lost. But for people like Matilda, having Mass said up at Netherhurst Farm, and of course the altar site, which is at the back of this courtyard here, their altar was lying there quietly buried and preserved… 

Thank you, Gerard. That's just reminding me that we must persevere with our faith and with doing what we think is right, even in challenging times. But I wonder if we might switch back to Anne-Marie and let's not spend more time thinking about violence and hatred. Anne-Marie, maybe you can tell us something about outdoors here. What speaks to you outside the site here? What is here that is of beauty and peace and the love of God? 

You can hear the rustle of the wind in the trees, which very much reminds us  of the ever creating, making things new God that we have in the Holy Spirit.  The wind always reminds us, I think, of the kind of hovering over chaos and creating  beauty and evolving the world when we hear the wind rustling in the trees. We've got the sun bathing on my face at the moment, which is very welcome. That just reminds us of the radiance of Jesus when his face is shining upon us that, you know, everything else, any other worries just disappear. He’s the ultimate King of the universe. You've got the sheer beauty of the rolling hills behind, which just remind us of Creator God that has made a very beautiful playground for his children and he wants us to be happy  and he wants to bless us. And just a real, deep sense of peace. Although we're close to a railway line, the Manchester to Sheffield railway line, it also feels like we're out in the middle of nowhere really. And there's a beautiful arched pathway that's just inviting us to imagine pilgrims walking through just across there, kind of dappled in the sunlight. I know that many walkers come past here and are surprised by it. They absolutely love it when the chapel is open. Even if they can't go inside, just sitting here picnicking. People come here to pray. I've had people tell me that they have been in difficult times and they have come here and found a place where they can pray easily and God has answered their prayers. 

Thank you Anne-Marie, that was beautiful. Listeners, just before I leave the site today, we're standing where the altar stone was discovered in the grounds of the chapel and there's carving around the site just to show people where it is that tells people that this is where it was discovered in 1933. And we noticed while we're standing here there's a beautiful oak tree with acorns on it at this time of year shading the site. Anne-Marie, what does this say to you?

Well, it's just for me, it's like an Indiana Jones discovery of, you know, the lost ark, but it was the lost buried altar stone. And when Monsignor Payne had bought back this site for the Catholic Church  and started doing archaeological digs in this area, can you imagine the joy and the  sense of validation for what he had risked when he found this ancient altar stone. It reads, The ancient altar was discovered here, August the 24th AD 1933 and it was reconsecrated in AD 1934. And I think just above this site is this gorgeous oak tree which is very symbolic of new life with gorgeous acorns falling into the area where the altar stone was originally buried and we just think of God renewing everything. And also we've just been talking about this place as an ancient deer park. 

Tom from across the way said he found 13 deer in here one night. 

Wow.  

The first time I prayed here with a priest, we prayed the rosary by the side of this oak tree. On this steep wall amid all the forest overgrowth, an absolutely huge stag just stood and gazed upon us as though Jesus himself had come to visit us and just gazed for minutes, minutes on end. And then the stag just walked very graciously and majestically and disappeared back into the undergrowth.  It was stunning. 

Amazing. We'll finish on that very physical experience of nature around us, speaking to us of God. I would just say listeners, there's a pilgrimage here every summer. Outside here where we're standing is where there is a Mass said by the Bishop of Hallam, Bishop Ralph, and the Bishop of Nottingham, Bishop Patrick. I'm going to come next summer, 12th of July, I'm going to be here for that pilgrimage. Now I've discovered this wonderful place and maybe some of you will be inspired to come along too or to find somewhere similar where you are. This is a beautiful place and it's been a great privilege to spend some time here with you today. Thank you, Anne-Marie. Thank you, Gerard.

 Thank you. Thank you so much. 

Picture the scene listeners as my train was pulling into the platform to make my way home from Padley, Anne-Marie was running down the lane carrying a chip butty and just managed to hand it to me before I got on the train. I'm really grateful to Gerard and Anne-Marie for working together to make that chip butty happen. And if you haven't eaten a chip butty in the North of England, I recommend you find a way to do that too. Then finally, regarding developments in the podcast, I'm really grateful to the Passionists of St. Patrick's Province, Ireland and Britain who have given me some support with this mission. I'm hoping to have an in-person event in the spring next year, and I hope to meet some of you listeners in person there and some guests too. So keep listening to find out more about that. And I also will have a new way for you to engage with the podcast and share your thoughts online in the next couple of months. Keep listening for updates about all of that. And I'm really grateful for the feedback that I receive already from listeners.

Thanks so much for joining me on All Kinds of Catholic this time.  I hope today's conversation has resonated with you. A new episode is released each Wednesday.  Follow AllKindsOfCatholic on the usual podcast platforms. Rate and review to help others find it. And follow our X Twitter and Facebook accounts, @kindsofCatholic.  You can comment on episodes and be part of the dialogue there.  You can also text me if you're listening to the podcast on your phone, although I won't be able to reply to those texts. Until the next time.