72: I am a daughter of the Most High God

Episode 72: An episode with special guests Sister Marie-Kolbe Zamora, a Franciscan Sister of Christian Charity, visiting from America, and Jenny Hayward-Jones of CAFOD.  First, Sr Marie shares her insight that conversation is 'sacred space.' Then, illuminated by her theological expertise and her recent work at the Vatican, we share our thoughts about getting used to a new pope, the Synod of Bishops, and being a woman - in the world and in the Church. Jenny says, 'This is what women do. We problem solve together.' 

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Sister Marie-Kolbe Zamora giving a short reflection

CAFOD

Father (now Cardinal) Timothy Radcliffe: One of his meditations offered at the Synod of Bishops

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The podcast is kindly supported by the Passionists of St Patrick's Province, Ireland & Britain and by CAFOD.

Music: Greenleaves from Audionautix.com

Transcript

You're listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro. My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of ways we're living our faith today. Pope Francis used the image of a caravan for our travelling together on a sometimes chaotic journey.  And Pope Leo, quoting St Augustine, reminds us, Let us live well and the times will be good. We are the times. I hope you'll feel encouraged and affirmed and maybe challenged now and then.  I am too in these conversations. And if you're enjoying them, it helps if you rate and review on the platform where you're listening.  Thank you.

Listeners, a pretty special episode coming up today, but just before we get into that, I recently discovered that if you have an Alexa device and you ask your Alexa device to play this podcast, the All Kinds Catholic podcast,  it will do that for you. There are people out there that could be listening to this podcast on their Alexa device if you tell them about it.  So thank you in advance for whatever you may be doing to help build up this wonderful community.

So listeners, thank you for joining the pod today. It's really great to have you here.  Now, long-term listeners may remember that at the beginning of the year for the Feast of the Epiphany, we did an episode called Three Wise Women. And today I'm joined by two more wise women and we're going to have a great conversation. The two women joining today have some great experience to talk about. So I'm looking forward to this conversation. Welcome Jenny and Sister Marie. 

Thanks, Theresa. Lovely to be here. 

Thank you.

And Jenny, you're going to introduce Sister Marie. So for listeners, Jenny works at CAFOD, who kindly provide me with some background support for this podcast. And Sister Marie is being hosted by CAFOD just at the moment. So Jenny, tell us a bit about Sister Marie then. 

So Sister Marie-Kolbe Zamora is a Franciscan Sister of Christian Charity. She's originally from Houston in Texas. She brings huge theological expertise to this conversation today. Sister Marie holds a doctorate in Sacred Theology from the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome.  She taught theology at secondary and university levels and was the Chair of theology and ministry at Silver Lake College in Wisconsin. Since 2021 and until earlier this year, Sister Marie worked in the general secretariat of the Synod of Bishops in Rome,  working closely with Cardinal Mario Grech and the whole Synod team. So I'm delighted to introduce her today and really pleased that she's back in the UK.

And it's good to have you here too, Jenny. 

Thank you. Good to be with you both. 

And so I thought we might start, Sister, I'm interested in your thoughts and yours too, Jenny, about conversation. So as long-term listeners will know, the purpose of this podcast or the reason that I started it, I just was really conscious that in my life conversations with other Catholic people that I came into contact with through work or through standing at the school gates, picking up my kids, that those conversations have really shaped my faith, have really encouraged me or challenged me or  made me think about things differently, but certainly have been really important. And yet those everyday conversations are not really lifted up anywhere. You know, they're not things that reach a wider audience. And so I just thought, discerned, felt called, to lift up those everyday conversations. And that's what this podcast is about. It's about ordinary Catholic people sharing how we're living our faith and just giving a chance for other Catholic people to listen to and feel part of that conversation. So I'm wondering Sister Marie, what you think about conversation in this way that I'm describing. How have you found that in your life? Because obviously you're really academically qualified and yet you're an ordinary person too, an ordinary Catholic too. 

I hope! Conversation, well, my mind goes to many possible ways to respond to this, but I'm enthused about any kind of conversation.  One of my favourite pastimes is to converse at table over a good meal. But, the good meal is lovely but the conversation is for me the main course, to be honest. So ‘converse’, I think of the Lord Jesus who, the Word of the Father who took on flesh precisely so He could be conversation with us.  In fact, the Second Vatican Council teaches us that in divine revelation, God speaks to humanity as friends. And this sounds like conversation to me. So conversation really is at the heart of the God in whom we make our act of faith. He wished to become conversation with and for us. I think also the etymology, or the possible etymologies, of the word conversation, it could mean to turn toward or to turn with, so ‘converse’, to turn.  But I think also it could mean to - in Italian versare means to pour, so to pour with.  Recently I've begun to think about conversation in this kind of a key, that when we converse with one another, we pour our lives into one another. So we nourish one another with ourselves in the same way that we're nourished by the incarnate Lord Jesus, who came to pour his life into us. And literally, he pours his life into us at our baptism - which is the good news about our baptism that we tend to forget.  So in conversation, we pour ourselves into others and others pour themselves into us. Conversation then, in this sense of pouring life into one another, sharing life really intimately with one another, intimately in the everyday, you know, conversations between the soccer moms, football moms, don't know what kind of mom, rugby moms, you know. The moms who’re picking up their children at school, as you mentioned. The moms who stay home and and take care of the elderly in their neighbourhood. I mean, these kinds of conversations, to me, they image the Living God who became conversation with us, poured life into us. And so these conversations, everyday conversations between husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, children, friends, brothers, sisters, these everyday conversations are sacred space, really sacred space, where we experience life and communion. This is where ecclesial church, Catholic communion, begins, in these conversations, which is why gossip is so wicked.  Pope Francis, if there was anything he harped on in terms of its wickedness, it was gossip. Because gossip destroys the possibility for conversation, which -   so I'm working my way to this point, which I hadn't quite thought of before - conversation really is sacred space. Words and the sharing of words, words are in themselves sacred, meant to communicate goodness and love and truth. And so then the sharing of words in conversation is sacred space. So I think you're doing, there's a real vocation here in this podcast and you're really, I think, living the Christian vocation eminently by encouraging this kind of everyday conversation. 

Oh, thank you, Sister Marie. That's wonderful. And yes, I like where your thoughts took you there because I was thinking while you were talking about the sacred space, I was thinking, gosh, this is a responsibility to do this well and you could misuse conversation as you say. So that's very powerful. Thank you. So Jenny, I wonder if conversation has been important to you. Obviously, you've lived in other countries too and had to put down roots in different places. I wonder if conversation is part of that. 

Yeah. So at the moment I work for CAFOD in a fundraising role, working with our wonderful network of parish volunteers all over England and Wales. So that's a real privilege to be able to meet so many of our volunteers around the country. Meeting people online, over Zoom meetings and in webinars and in phone conversations. What's really taught me a lesson over the last few years has been the pandemic, which of course was a huge tragedy for so many people. But which is a blessing in that we were forced to go online to meet people, forced to go online to speak to people, to have those conversations that we would normally have had in person. And I met so many people in that year that I would never have met in person and was so enriched by the conversations that we had. So not only in my work, but like I'm sure many of your listeners, the Catholic world really was quite quick to move online and there were so many webinars and Zoom meetings and lots of dioceses put on retreats online so that we could all be together. And I think that was such a blessing for us all to widen our networks and to speak to people that we wouldn't normally speak to.  That blessing of being able to talk to people that you would otherwise never encounter. So it really showed me, I guess, sort of in a roundabout way, what Pope Francis was getting at when he was encouraging us to join in a culture of encounter in order to be in communion with our sisters and brothers we needed to encounter,  to meet, to go out and to listen. So that has been a blessing that Pope Francis has given me personally just to learn how to do that. And of course, reflecting back on my career, I used to be a diplomat and then I headed up an international research program at an international affairs think tank in Sydney in Australia. And so I've been having conversations, if you like, or meetings, meeting foreign officials, prime ministers, heads of state, being involved in lots of high level meetings and in lots of grassroots going out into villages in the Solomon Islands and Vanuatu and Papua New Guinea, where I used to work. And in Turkey, I used to work as well in community meetings with women.  So I think conversations have been just a part of my life the whole time, but I didn't really understand, I guess, the spiritual dimension or my faith dimension of those until I started listening to Pope Francis in the last few years and really getting engaged with the synodal process as well. 

Thank you, Jenny. Now, both of you have mentioned Pope Francis. When Jenny and I were preparing for this meeting, Sister, we both shared that we were huge fans of Pope Francis. And when I started this podcast last summer, in my intro, I used some of Pope Francis' imagery to sort of set the context for what the podcast is about. ‘Caravan of solidarity’, ‘somewhat chaotic journey we're on together’, ‘stepping into this flood tide of life.’ All of these beautiful images that he gave us that spoke, like Jenny said, so well to me also. And then of course he died.  So at the moment, if people listen to my intro, I've got a sort of hybrid. I've kept some of Pope Francis' imagery because it's so right for what I feel I'm doing. And I've tacked on a little bit about Pope Leo because, yet, I don't really know much about him, you know, but he said something that I thought was really good at the beginning about quoting St. Augustine, Let us live well and the times will be good. We are the times. So I've popped that into my intro. And at the moment I've got this slight hybrid. And it reflects really that I’m still struggling to lay down Pope Francis and pick up Pope Leo, if it's okay to say that. Because I don't really have, like all of us, I think, I don't really have a feel yet for how he's going to communicate with us and what he's going to teach us. So I wonder where you are with that Sister Marie? Because obviously you've worked in Rome and worked alongside Pope Francis around the synod. I wonder where you are with that process.

I will be in just about the same place. Though I think, for me, the experience of being able to work just a little bit with Cardinal Prevost - 

That's Cardinal Prevost who has gone on to become Pope Leo. 

-  within the Synod. He would come to our offices and help with documents and just different meetings. So to be able to observe him in those settings and to see him walking the streets right around the Vatican, just to observe him be very focussed, normal, courteous.  I think that experience has given me a sense of confidence that he is and will move ahead with the same - he has the same sensibility for encounter and relationship that Pope Francis had. He does. If you study a little bit, even just his first discourses, he is genius, and it comes naturally. The language he uses when he encounters groups of people, there's lots of warmth. Blessings from the heart, blessings with love. Really, really warm. A huge sense of courtesy even in the way he speaks to and turns to the people with whom he's meeting. I'm confident that he has the same sense of encounter that Pope Francis had. His style is his. He's not the same man. Pope Francis had his character with his lights and shadows like all of our characters. Pope Leo has his own character. And I think you saw some of that character too on the loggia. You notice the languages that he spoke for somebody from the United States -  

Sister Marie is referencing when Cardinal Prevost first addressed the world as Pope Leo. 

- he spoke languages that were not English well. He spoke from a paper on which he had written things. It's like he had a big tablet in front of him and he was just, you could almost have seen him on the side while the Cardinals are rushing around, getting these words written down with care. So he's very real. But he spoke flawless Italian, flawless Spanish. And I think that was deliberate. I think he is a deliberate man. I think he makes choices. There's nothing haphazard about him. And I think the fact that he spoke those two languages and not English communicated to the world that he's open to everybody. So again, the spirit of encounter is there, but it’ll be his own style. And his own style is taking a while, I think, to reveal itself. And I think in that while it's taking, I think it's revealing itself as very low key. He flies low to the ground, so to speak.  I'm confident. I think too, in the Catholic Church we have this tradition of receiving a new father. You know, families, we’re joyed when we received new children. And in the Catholic Church we’re joyed, when we receive new children for sure. But we're also joyed when we receive a new father.  And that joy, I think, really helps us move beyond the grief that we feel because the receiving of a new father comes at the loss of a former father who remains father to us in glory for sure.  Life out of death, this is the paschal life and there's joy here I think. 

Yes, thank you Sister. Yeah, I'm glad that we're kind of in the same space. That is reassuring to me. I'm kind of saying to myself, I just need to be in this time that there's no rushing ahead to sorting out who Pope Leo is and getting on with it. You know, this is the time that we're in. 

Right. And grief takes its own time. As I'm talking with you and watching you too, it's a grief, but it's not a joyless grief. It takes its own time and it is and will be what it is. 

And if we may move on then to, you mentioned there being in Rome. So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about your experience as a woman religious - I don't know if you can divide those really - at the synod, part of it, you know, how did you find it? What are the things that encourage you? 

Well, I, you know, it was a privilege and an honour to be there. Really, I was recruited out of the blue to work for the general secretariat to the Synod. And I'm grateful for that.  I'm grateful that the work found me because it enabled me to engage that work with a profound sense of freedom that I think I hope I pray helped me to maintain a sense of integrity as I went about that work.  I was and remain, as I reflect back, very impressed at Cardinal Grech's openness to the creativity of the people around him. In a situation like a worldwide synod that was going to be like no other worldwide synod had ever been. There was an awful lot of pressure on him to move in different directions.

And so he had a lot of sorting out to do, a lot of discernment to do. He didn't follow up on every suggestion made by everybody, but he did genuinely listen to every suggestion made by everybody. And then he made the best choice that he could. Personally, I remember a conversation with him early on in my employment there. We had had a big meeting that I had helped as the lead on, and we took a day of retreat after that meeting. And I remember in a conversation with him, I said, you know, religious communities, when we have General Chapter, we engage the services of a chaplain to accompany the process of a general chapter. Because I had realised by that time that a synod of bishops is essentially like a General Chapter. It's a moment of governance in the Church. Could be, well, you need a chaplain to say Mass, but it could be you have a woman also to just sort of accompany and offer reflections based on what they hear to keep the Chapter on target. And this is invaluable. So I said to him, This is what General Chapters do. I don't know if the Synod could do anything like that. I mean, he took that in and he thought about it and months later we learned that he was appointing not one, but two chaplains for the Synod of Bishops. Now, Father Timothy Radcliffe, now Cardinal Timothy Radcliffe, I mean, we've all heard his homilies. We've all heard his meditations. We've read those meditations. They were incredibly fruitful and helpful, not only to the Synod assembly, but to the whole world. This is a very small conversation that one of his employees had with him that he took to heart and worked it out. That openness, I found it remarkable. At that level of the Church, you've got a Cardinal who is secretary to the Holy Father for the Synod of Bishops, is that open to the creativity of the people around him? It was remarkable.

That's great. Yeah. And I think it's encouraging for Catholic people who aren't there in the Vatican to hear that somebody can say something and it be heard and acted on. After discernment, I think that's really important too, that it's not just rushing from one thing to another. Something that I think always strikes me when I hear from people who were there - I've been involved in work capacities, in many events. And there is something where, although it's at the Vatican and it's a worldwide council and it’s really trying to discern what the Holy Spirit is, the direction the Holy Spirit might lead the church in, there's still something about, have we got enough chairs? Have we got all the papers we need? What time is it going to be? Does everybody know? There's still all of those practical things to be done, aren't there? 

Yes, there are. And so, and a lot of that work fell to the staff of our office. A few people in particular. I just have to say that the person in the office, for example, and it ended up falling to one person in the office who became the guarantor of all the technology. He became the guarantor of the physical setup of the tables of those photographs that became so famous, but also the guarantor of all the technology, that it had been acquired and that it actually worked. I mean, this was a person with so many, many relationships inside the Vatican. Because again, he couldn't possibly himself go set up all those tables and then go set up all the tech. He needed a whole team of technicians helping him. And he had the relationships with this team of technicians to help him and together out of love for each other, essentially, and out of respect for each other, because it wasn't easy. He pulled this off in very, very little time.  The vision for the tables, I think happened, well, it happened maybe later in the process, certainly later in the process than an American would like.  Probably later in the process than someone from England or Wales would like.

Oh, definitely. 

Maybe not late in the process for Italians.  But this man, he pulled it off for love of the Church. And he's a man without, you know, big titles. He's just a man who knows how to get the job done.  I admired him. I still admire him for his generous service.  Kind of a person you'll never see, you'll never know, you know. 

Well done that person. So one of the things that I think Pope Francis himself in the way he led the church and out of the synodal process, we saw women in leadership positions in the Vatican and around those tables at the Synod. And that's been wonderful. I think making that an authentic reality throughout the Church is a long process, which has some way to go. I think there's a link to CAFOD's work here. Jenny and I were talking before, because there are women in communities that CAFOD works with who have always been leaders in their community, have always been people who make things happen in the way you were talking about that man there in the Vatican, doing the tech. So I wonder if, Jenny, you could tell us a little bit about what that kind of community teaches us, in the way that CAFOD works with those people and has some insight into those communities? What that teaches us that already is, I think, an element of a synodal way of being that we can learn from?

So I mentioned before that my job is working with our parish volunteers all over England and Wales. And this year, in the Jubilee year, we shared two stories. In Lent we shared the story of a woman called Lokho who lives in Marsabit in Kenya, an area where the drought in East Africa had been quite severe. The community, which is a pastoralist community, had to sell all their livestock. Unfortunately, many of their livestock died. They were heavily dependent on aid and food and water being trucked in for a long period of time. And the community had to adapt to a different way of life because they'd lost their livestock. What was really inspiring about this story is it was the women who got together in the community and the women worked together to share, over the period of the drought, to share what they had with each other to make sure all of their families had enough to eat. Such an incredible thing - of course that's the way communities work. The community members come together to support each other, but in this case it was really the women who were proactive in doing that. And when the rains did come, they got together and said, well, we need to work out how we're going to grow food and earn income so that we can play a part in supporting the community. They worked with our CAFOD partner there, Caritas Marsabit, on setting up some shade cloths which, effectively like an outdoor greenhouse, protected from animal damage  and also from the harshest effects of the sun but allowed water through. So now they're growing their own vegetables, the whole community together. The women who really all worked together on this and then out of that developed their own small businesses. And just last week we had our Harvest Family Fast Appeal. Another story of another woman called Waré in southern Ethiopia and her community similarly affected by that drought basically ran out of water sources.  So the women had to walk such long distances for water, like up to nine hours every day.  At some point water was trucked in by government arranged services because it was such a severe drought. The community worked with our local partner in southern Ethiopia to build underground water tanks that enabled when the rains came to store the water without it evaporating in the heat, that would come with the above ground water tanks. But what was so delightful about this story and something I learned later in the piece - the story kind of reveals itself over time, when I talk to different people who were there and our partners there and my colleague there telling me more about the impact on the women in the community. Once this water tank was built, it enabled the women to have more time together. They didn't have to walk nine hours. They had more time to collaborate, more time to problem solve together. And it really appealed to me. I thought this is what women do. We problem solve together. We share our problems. So again, it takes us back to conversations.  People understand the value of the work CAFOD’s doing and the joy it brings to us to see that women are able to determine their own future and run the businesses that they want to run and look after their families. So it's been a blessing this Jubilee year to share those two stories. 

Thanks, Jenny. Actually, something there kind of resonated with me because I've been preparing an episode, which listeners will hear in a couple of weeks, with somebody who has done a lot of volunteering in later life, a woman. And I was just reflecting overnight actually about, I mean, the common theme there would be that women do a lot of that practical work and a lot of that, as you say, problem solving and thinking about what the whole community needs and finding ways to help. And in the Church in  England and Wales, we know women are the people who are doing a lot of the voluntary roles  and giving lots and lots of time and support to the community, taking on different ministries and things, the ones that are open to us. And actually in doing that, I was thinking overnight, actually we receive so much back. We become able to talk about the things that matter. We become able to see how people are managing and find ways to help because we are building skills by giving our time and being in conversation with so many people, receiving graces and blessings from our service in the name of the Church. That actually, I think it builds us up in a way that people who aren't giving that service are actually missing out on. I think sometimes people think that women are really articulate compared with men. And I wonder how much of that is because we do that practical stuff and we talk to people and we find out what's needed.  That's a bit of a kind of stream of consciousness there, Sister Marie, because that's just what I'm reflecting on overnight. But I don't know if something there speaks to you about where women are in the church and where we could be and how we might try and get there because we feel dissatisfied somehow in the West, I think. I don't want to speak for the whole world. I don't know if I could speak for women in the church in the West really, fairly. I think, you know, I hear from women in England and Wales, some of us are dissatisfied with where we are in the church. I don't know how that strikes you Sister Marie. 

Yes. Oh, this is a delicate question.  And as you pose this, I’m moved to  move  in uh a direction I’m surprised by. I'm a daughter in a Hispanic family. My father was raised in Mexico City. My mother, Mexican-American, part of the founding of San Antonio, so this  huge Mexican, Texican  identity. But my dad's raising in Mexico City poised him to value his sons.  Now, he loved his daughters. There's no doubt about that. He learned to appreciate his daughters, I think, as he got older. But he wasn't older when I was born. He was figuring this out when I was born. You know, when I was a child, it was clear that he valued his sons. It was clear that it was probably easier to be a son in this family than to be a daughter. And specifically, he valued the education that his sons would get.  The irony of that was the only child of his who has a doctorate is his oldest daughter. That would be myself. The only children of his that went on to go to college initially were the daughters. Three daughters, four sons. The only son who ended up with a college degree is the youngest son. So three of the four:  no education. He was focused on that. His sons needed an education. His sons needed this. The daughters, whatever. So I'm raised - I understand this feeling of dissatisfaction in the Church. I understand this and I live it. I've lived it existentially in myself. But I began there because what did I learn with my father? I learned that my father is my father and I love him, period.  So the bishops are the bishops and I love them, period. I mean, it's a different kind of a love, but I think it's as deep as the love I have for my Dad. But the other thing I learned, I think, is more deeply inside of me. And this is my own walk as a disciple. This is what the Lord Jesus, I think, has helped me come to: I am a daughter of the Most High God. There is no affirmation that the bishops can give me that trump God's love. There is no affirmation that my Dad can give me that trump's God's... I mean, okay. So I live in the presence, I pray God, to live in the presence of the Living God and I pray for the grace to receive the dignity and the class to walk through life, with dignity and class. Even in situations where because I am a woman, perhaps I am underappreciated, under recognised. Being underappreciated and being under recognised is hand in hand with being a woman in the world - in the world and then I think also in the Church. The other thing in terms of, so as I worked in the Synod of Bishops and I could see, you get an eye into the lives of the bishops. I think the bishops also feel unrecognised and underappreciated. Now, they feel that from a position of power that I as a woman, that we as women will never have in the Church. And so you can say, Well, you know, there's that. But the bishops feel underappreciated and under-recognised, and I am daughter of the Living God who loves these bishops the way He loves everybody else. And I love the Church, which is to say then that my life in a certain way engages the lives of the bishops. Now, this is my being spirited: If the bishops don't have the good sense to consult me, well, not that I have the end word on everything, but I do have something to say. Women have something to say. If the bishops don't have the good sense to do that consulting, well, too bad for them, but also too bad for the rest of us. So then how to move forward with this in peace? I think in peace, in peace. So women, we know we have a contribution to make. I think women are good in the nitty gritty. I think we just are. And we could really help the bishops in the nitty gritty if they permitted us to help them.  But I don't think they're gonna want our help at the same time if we're not in peace. We just need to be peaceful about these things and operate out of a sense of love. I think attitude really is everything. So my responses here move more in the direction of attitude because I think with the right attitudes and in the right circumstances, things work out. It's not that life is easy.  Even working for the Synod was very difficult. Sometimes it was more difficult because I was an American. Sometimes it was more difficult because I was a woman. You just walk that difficulty with dignity, staying open to what's coming next. And in that, I think we women encourage one another. I was very encouraged by some of the women around me who were suffering the same discomfort with the lack of recognition, with the lack of courtesy, with whatever it could be. So I'm encouraged by other women who are able to carry themselves with a lot of class and a lot of dignity, patience, peace, in situations that can be really crucible situations. I don't know if that helps.  

Yeah, I think that's a wonderful Sister. So listeners, at the beginning of the episode, I mentioned ‘two wise women’ and I think we really have heard wise words there. Sister Marie, I'm very moved by your ability to respond to my collection of thoughts with your own collection of thoughts, which led somewhere very wise and helpful. So thank you so much for that. And thank you, Jenny, for your thoughts. And for listeners, I think Jenny and I may do an episode again and cover some more things that Jenny has to share with us. So I'm really grateful to both of you for spending some time today. Thanks so much. 

Thank you too. 

Thank you, Theresa.

Thanks so much for joining me on All Kinds of Catholic this time.  I hope today's conversation has resonated with you.  A new episode is released each Wednesday.  Follow All Kinds of Catholic on the usual podcast platforms, rate and review to help others find it. And follow our X/Twitter and Facebook accounts  @kindsofCatholic. You can comment on episodes and be part of the dialogue there.  You can also text me if you're listening to the podcast on your phone, although I won't be able to reply to those texts. Until the next time.