73: Not watering it down. The healthy tension of love and truth.

Episode 73 In this episode, Fiona and Martyn share their experiences of evangelising - and being evangelised. Years ago, Martyn says he ‘knew I wanted to become a Catholic, but I hadn't really discussed the topic with my family,’ and Fiona, despite being a ‘quite ludicrously devout child…very much fell out of love with the Church.’ They explain what they have learned since then about sharing the Gospel with others, in loving and truthful ways.

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Transcript

You're listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro. My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of ways we're living our faith today. Pope Francis used the image of a caravan for our travelling together on a sometimes chaotic journey.  And Pope Leo, quoting St Augustine, reminds us, Let us live well and the times will be good. We are the times. I hope you'll feel encouraged and affirmed and maybe challenged now and then.  I am too in these conversations. And if you're enjoying them, it helps if you rate and review on the platform where you're listening.  Thank you.

Listeners, I know many of you have enjoyed recent episodes where we’ve had two guests – and here’s another one today. We have a theme this time too about sharing the gospel with others, evangelisation. You’ll hear me let slip later in the episode why I’m suddenly particularly interested in this. I hope you enjoy the conversation.

Listeners, thanks for joining the episode today. I'm joined by two guests today, Martyn and Fiona, who are married. We thought together that it'd be really interesting to talk about evangelising. So let's see where the conversation takes us. But first, let's have Martyn and Fiona just introduce yourself. Welcome. 

Thank you very much. My name is Martyn. I'm a convert from Orthodox Judaism.  I work at Nationwide Building Society, where I've been 25 years. 

I'm Fiona.  I'm a cradle Catholic. Martyn and have been married for coming up for 18 years. I work in internal communications, which I absolutely love. It's just really great to have this opportunity to talk about our faith and how we, try anyway, to inspire others to a deeper relationship with Christ. 

Thank you both. We must follow up Martyn on your conversion because some listeners have asked me to try and find more guests who are converts because it just so happens I've had lots of guests who were cradle Catholics. So would you mind telling us a little bit about that, how that happened for you? 

So yeah, I was born into an Orthodox Jewish family. went through the usual rites of passage. So I was circumcised when I was eight days old and I had my bar mitzvah when I was 13, where a young boy becomes an adult in the eyes of the community. The scripture that I had on that day, the rabbi prayed over me, and it was Aaron's priestly blessing, May the Lord bless you and protect you, may He cause His face to shine upon you. Really beautiful prayer. I loved all the festivals that we celebrated and especially the Passover because the Passover celebration is just full of joy and recognition of God's great act of redemption for the Jewish people, a really beautiful celebration and loads of interesting foods that you eat. And I was really happy in my Jewish faith, went to a Jewish school. And a real sense of identity, an identity of my ancestry going back thousands of years. You couldn't really put your finger on it, but you knew it was something that you were born into, of a heritage. And then when was 18, I went to go and live in Preston and I studied psychology. And then there were two other people in the house. And one of them was a young lady called Emma. But from the first moment that I met her, it was just something about her, a peace and a joy, a serenity. We struck up a friendship and became very close friends and still are to this day. She was a young woman who had been brought up in the Catholic faith and was very active in her faith. And I had no idea what the Catholic faith was about. And as our friendship grew, she was interested in my Judaism and I thought out of respect, I should show some interest in her Catholic faith. And she was going back home to her family, and she said, Would you like to come and visit my family? And I said, Yeah, that'd be great. And on the Saturday evening, she went to Mass and she said, No pressure at all, but if you want, you're welcome to come to Mass with me. That's very kind of her to ask. I thought, Should I go? Shouldn't I? And that was the first time that I ever set foot in a Catholic church. And although I felt incredibly guilty, and if I don't deny it as well, a little bit scared, there were so many things that reminded me of the Jewish synagogue. So when I saw the altar light, I said to Emma, what's that light there for? And she explained, well, it's to show the presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. And in my background, every synagogue would have an altar light signifying the presence of God in the word of God in the Torah.  Interesting. And I experienced Mass for the first time. It went over my head. I had no idea what was happening. But at the end of Mass, I cried and cried in a way that I hadn't really, I suppose, been touched before in a spiritual way. And sort of time went on and Emma was sharing details of her faith and I was sharing about myself. And there was one time when Emma, she was having a scripture reflection time. The scripture that she had was when it says that when the day of the Lord comes, there will be two in the field, one will be taken, one will be left. And she shared that with me and I didn't know what it meant.  But when I heard it, I cried again. Jumping forward quite a bit of time - and there was one moment when I thought Emma was calling me, so I went to her room, and she was speaking in Hebrew. And I said, Emma, what are you doing speaking in Hebrew? And she looked as shocked as me and she explained that she was praying in tongues.  It's a gift of the Holy Spirit to be able to speak in a language that you don't understand. And I said, But I understand what you're saying. And the word that she was saying in Hebrew is kadsh otenu, which means sanctify us. It's a word that's used in almost every single Jewish prayer in Hebrew. So as you can imagine, it made quite a deep impact on me. I started to go to Mass because I thought, There's something that is here. I'm not quite sure, but I just felt drawn. And when I started to go to Mass more frequently, I could see the fulfilment of the Jewish Passover with the unleavened bread, with the wine and the fulfilment of the redemption. And I started to get some books to sort of understand what is the Catholic faith about. By the end of the three years, I've reached a point where by God's grace, I realised God was calling me on this journey. I then moved to Northampton and I went to the Cathedral and I noticed there was an RCIA course for those who were interested in becoming Catholic. Really good, very instructive, gave you the opportunity to ask those questions that maybe so many people take for granted. And I went through the course and by the end of it, I knew I wanted to become a Catholic, but I hadn't really discussed the topic with my family. That was the biggie for me, how to deal with that in a loving way. And I went on a pilgrimage to Medjugorje. And I just prayed for the grace to be able to discern how to deal with this and how to share this.  I decided to become a Catholic on January the 1st, 1994, the feast day of Our Lady Mother of the Church - because it was Feast Day to Our Lady, but also it was a Saturday, so it meant that friends could come and could be at my baptism and confirmation. Without realising it, the readings were just so perfect for that day. And the first reading was, May the Lord bless you and protect you. May He cause His face to shine upon you. The reading I'd had at my bar mitzvah and I thought, my word, God, you are doing something special here and I know I've not deserved it, but clearly you've just blessed me with this.  And the gospel reading that day was the circumcision of Jesus, so it just felt such a beautiful, beautiful fulfilment. An interesting journey, and even now I do sometimes still pinch myself, I think, where God has brought me to, and every day is a day to grow in faith and His love. 

That's an amazing journey, Martyn. We're going to come to you as well, Fiona. One of the things that I want to respond to straight away, previous guests, listeners will remember, we were talking about both of us having worked our way through the Bible chronologically very recently. And we were both saying that we suddenly were beginning to realise what it means that the gospel, that the life of Jesus fulfils the Old Testament. And now I'm meeting you who in a way in your own life, you've kind of lived that fulfilment. You've journeyed through it. So that's really interesting to meet you and hear that story.  And we'll unpick some of the evangelising themes there in a minute. But Fiona, I think just because someone is a cradle Catholic doesn't necessarily mean that their faith has been important to them all through their life. So I wonder what your faith journey has been like?

I grew up in quite a faith-filled household, which was wonderful.  Our whole family experience ebbed and flowed with the seasons of the church year. My dad was the MC at the cathedral for many years, the MC for the bishop. It was wonderful. It was such a huge privilege. We always had priests coming in and out of the house. It was quite marvellous. And then when I was about 17, my mum was diagnosed with breast cancer. And then a year or so later, it came back and it was in her bones and it wasn't operable. She had a massive stroke. She was in hospital for many, many months. That was all very difficult. And during that time, I'll be completely honest, we were not served well by the Church, the Church that my dad and my mum had given so much of themselves to. We were trying to find a priest to come and speak to my dad, who was obviously just in a complete free fall, but no one seemed to be available. Everyone was too busy. Everyone was on holiday. Everybody was far away. Nobody could make the journey. And it was so disappointing. And I remember feeling that very, very keenly. We had a priest who came to give my mum the last rites and he came into the family room minutes after he did it. It was Christmas time. I said, Oh, you know, have you had a nice Christmas? Trying to make conversation. And he said, Well, I went back to Derby where I'm from and the thing is once your parents have died, there's nothing for you in your hometown is there?  You're just like, What are you saying? Almost as a direct result of that experience, certainly two of my sisters no longer practice any faith. And that then obviously then reverberates through the generations, doesn't it? So I have said to my priest friends before, just be really aware in these crunch circumstances, what you say and do because the impact of it can go on to generations. My mum died just before my 20th birthday. While I never lost faith in God, I never blamed God. I very, very much fell out of love with the church and I was very hurt on behalf of my dad. But I never stopped going to church because he needed someone to go with him. And I knew that if he stopped going, then, you know, the fabric of society would break down. But I've got very vivid memories of being in Mass and it would come to the Creed. And I would quite happily say the whole Creed until, I believe in one holy Catholic and apostolic church and I would drop out and then pick it back up. I cannot say I believe in this Church that took so much from my parents and gave so little back when we really needed it. I was always the one reading some enormous book of stories of the saints on the SVP bus trip to Walsingham. I was a quite ludicrously devout child. And so it felt quite shocking to me that I was feeling like that.  And I had a good friend who was atheist. And he just said, he said, You've just got to make a decision about what this is for you and who God is for you. Either He's the God who you've told me repeatedly, loves you, cares for you, wants to be in relationship with you and wants the very best for you, or he's Father Christmas who grants wishes. He can't be both. And your church, as you've told me a million times, is made up of people who make mistakes and people who act in the moment and people who don't show the best of themselves. So how about you show some grace to those people as well? And it was such a wake-up call, but he was absolutely right. And it took a little while. I've read a lot of other people's stories of recovering from being hurt by the church. At that time, a good friend of mine was also finding her way, and so we stumbled into Youth 2000. That really, really helped. Just getting back into that rhythm of the rosary and adoration and being with people my own age who understood and knew their faith and were living their faith so powerfully and who were able to help me lean back into my faith and lean back into the church that had been so important to me for so long and that I knew I didn't want to leave but that I was really struggling to connect to. So since I was 15, I'd been going to Lourdes in France as a helper. I started to learn to play guitar, being able to serve through my faith, started to take on a new dimension for me. Even if you are a cradle Catholic, you have to make your own decision for it. While I would have my mum back tomorrow, that experience was so important for me to be able to recognise my faith, what it can and should be.

Thank you, Fiona. The word that was sticking with me there was some sort of resilience in you, some resilience in not giving up when you were so hurt and things had gone so badly and the Lord sent you other people, including an atheist, to help you.

It's my favourite part of the whole thing. 

So let's think about evangelising then. Let's think first, maybe think about the sort of more informal, less obvious things. So there were little features there, Martyn, that you were talking about, just in the way you experienced this friend Emma and how she seemed, that was speaking to you in a way. And your response to some of the things in the church, the physical things. Fiona, I think in some ways finding your way back to the church or making a more conscious decision, some of that is about being evangelised, isn't it? Even though you know your faith, if you've grown up living it with your family, actually finding your way back to it. Can you point to things that helped you, that on reflection were kind of evangelising, that were informal things?

I think that's the thing with the benefit of hindsight, you can see actually how the Lord was working. And I think with Emma, she respected me for where I was at. I honestly don't think she was aiming to necessarily evangelise me. She was just trying to love me for who I was as a practising Jew at that time. So she was being authentic, was being respectful, being truthful as well because she didn't water down what her faith meant to her. And I think that's the tension, healthy tension, of love and truth. So if I was asking questions, she wouldn't sort of water it down and make it easier to hear. She would give it the fullness of the truth, for example, to say, as Catholics, we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. So although she probably knew that that might be a difficult statement for me to hear at that time, she proclaimed it, but in a gentle, loving way. And it makes you think in the stories and the gospels we hear, Jesus always met people where they're at. He didn't force people to be 10 years ahead of where they were in their conversion to the faith. It's treating people with gentleness and kindness and respect. 

I can remember years ago, we had a decade of evangelisation. I was much younger then, and I found it all a bit terrifying because immediately I was thinking of, Have I got to start knocking on people's doors and trying to talk to them about Jesus when they're eating their tea, and in the middle of the telly? But I think there's something about just meeting people, as you say, where they're at, treating people with love and gentleness in our lives that is evangelising. It's not something we need to put a special hat on to do. That is how we can be with people living out our vocation or our mission as Christians. 

I think on the other side as well that there are occasions where God has made it very clear where sometimes people are crying out for the truth. So at work, for example, people know that I'm a practising Catholic and so often we have a deeper meaningful - So Martyn, what do you think about this? And what's the church's teaching on this? And those relationships with people where it's a lot more direct and maybe that communication is more advanced and people are going straight for it saying, Right, you know, what is the church's teaching on euthanasia? Where does that come from? So then you think, Okay, Lord, this is the opportunity to hopefully in love, try to explain the church's teaching, in love. Not just what she teaches, but why. 

Even within that, that trusting relationship has been established where, you know, I've had similar circumstances where people said to me, What does the church say about, I think it was surrogacy, I think. There's almost a tacit recognition of the authority of the church in that, of some kind of authority that the church has to speak dogmatically and authoritatively on matters of morals, which of course is one of the enormous roles of the Magisterium. And I find that so fascinating. I had it the hairdressers yesterday. What’re you doing this weekend? And I mentioned I was doing this podcast. Oh, what's that about? Chatted about it. And she kind of said to me, So what does your community think of X, Y and Z? And I thought, it was an incredibly beautiful way of asking the question. But it showed a real desire to know something about what Christianity believes and teaches. And I think post-COVID it's greater than ever. And I think there's just this real desire to understand on a much deeper level what life is about, what is the purpose of all of these days that we're all spending. And surely it can't just be working nine to five and then spending three hours on TikTok. There must be something else going on. 

First of all, I noticed that we've moved quite quickly from what I was thinking of as informal ways of evangelising into what feels a bit more formal in that you're answering questions, which is the part I think we can find a bit scary. What does the church teach about this and why? I think many ordinary people in the pews can feel like that's the bit they feel worried about having to do because it's really hard to put some of those things into words. And also you would be worried, it's perfectly reasonable for people to be worried, that you're not going to represent the church very well because you've just not got the words. And I think there's something about, you know, if you have got a relationship of trust with somebody and you're speaking truthfully to them from your heart, as you understand it, that actually you can feel comfortable then to say, Well, crumbs, that is a really hard question. I can say something about that, but I'm not able to give you the - you can be honest about that, can't you? Having some confidence to answer more difficult questions. How do you feel about that? Obviously you've been in environments where you are supporting people through RCIA programs and things. I'm guessing Martyn, having received the RCIA program, it's filled some gaps that might be there for people who are cradle Catholics.  What would you say to reassure people who were feeling comfortable with, evangelising is about being an authentic person, meeting people where they're at, into and now they're going to ask me something really hard.

 Yeah, it's a really good question. And the beautiful thing with RCIA is that you have people there who are already aware that there's a calling that's going on in their hearts and that God has called them. So they're choosing to be there. I'm just alluding to what Fiona was saying. It's been fascinating, especially since post-COVID, the numbers of young people, especially men who have signed up for the RCIA course in our parish. And I think this is probably reflective, not just across the UK, but across Europe. The thing is, for me anyway, and I'm sure for anybody who's involved in catechesis, you know that it's not your work, it's the Lord's work. And by saying, Right Lord, this is a ministry you've invited me to be part of, it's a privilege, but give me the grace to do it. So you're really calling on the Holy Spirit to help you to be able to deliver the message, but also to discern where people are at. And it was interesting because in the course that we had last year, we had great, great candidates.  I never finished one of the sessions that I'd planned out because they had so many questions.  One of them asked, I would call it a moral question, Is Reiki all right and are crystals all right? Now I was probably going to touch on the moral teachings in another couple of months. But I really had a great sense of awareness  that the Lord had placed this sort of moral-ish question on that person's heart for that session because, you know, the message of putting God in the first place was now beginning to sink in and it was making people evaluate their lives and think, Is there anything in my life that I'm doing that is stopping me from growing in love for the Lord? Wow, that was a powerful moment. And again, isn't it? It's meeting people where they're at. There are some wonderful resources that are available online. So two of those that we use in our RCIA course,  podcasts or YouTube, Bishop Robert Barron from America, some wonderful material on teaching of the faith and meeting people where they're at. And then also Father Mike Schmitz, so I'm sure a lot of your listeners will probably be aware of Bible in a year, Catechism in a year.  YOUCAT is a wonderful resource as well. I've learned so much from it. The beauty of RCIA is that you have the opportunity to allow people, give them the permission to ask those questions that maybe they can't ask anywhere else.  I think that there's a responsibility for all of us to be well-formed. Having those good, solid resources which have the fullness of the truth but explained in a way that is full of the Lord's mercy and love and forgiveness because the truth without love that's not the message of our faith. They go hand in hand. 

When we've done RCIA through the years as well, some of the things that we find ourselves fighting against a little bit is what people believe the Catholic Church to be, what people think the Catholic Church teaches, which is so often not what the Catholic Church teaches. You know, we always say to our RCIA candidates, if you go through this entire process and you're received into the church at the Easter Vigil on Holy Saturday, you'll probably be some of the most informed people in the church because cradle Catholics, a lot of them don't know this stuff.  I learned that when I was evangelised at Youth 2000, because what I had was people my age in the early stages of their career who really knew their faith, who loved their faith, who understood their faith, who were just speaking conversationally about these issues. I think that's where that informal evangelisation can be so powerful. And I'm not by any means saying that I'm great at this, but if the way that you're living is interesting to people because it's a little bit weird compared to what they know and experience of the world, you become a little bit of a fascination to them. They start asking you questions and they're so fascinated by it that actually they're not looking to pounce on you. This conversation with my hairdresser yesterday, how, know, societally we're in quite a tricky position because we've lost that ability to have nuanced conversation around difficult topics. It's become you either fully agree with me or you hate me. One of my best friends from college, we disagree on pretty much everything it's possible to speak about. Through our relationship, we'll sit down for six hours and we will discuss - everything's on the table. But it is nuanced, it is loving.  We each give our own positions and we give the reasons for our beliefs and our thinking and so on. And we go away, we'll text each other two days later and go, I'm still unpacking what you said the other night. When people find people who are able to hold those nuanced, loving conversations, it's such a surprise in a way to them, which is so sad, but also it's such an opportunity. So if we're able as Catholics, as well catechised Catholics who know, love and understand the Church and their teachings, I think that actually puts us in quite a nice position for some of that less formal evangelisation. And I often say to people, I know that to you, a lot of the stuff that I believe sounds absolutely nuts. I absolutely get that. I can help you unpack it if you're interested. Being able to have those kind of very natural conversations, if it's something you're able to do, I think it's a really great avenue into evangelisation. 

While I've been doing this podcast, that's resonated with me Fiona, because one of the things I found that I wasn't expecting is how important truth has been for people talking about their faith and talking about their drawing closer to the church or what has attracted them to the church or what they find that they really value. And truth has been really important. And I think that is a reflection of where we are in our society, the sorts of things both of you have been saying. I think there's really something there to hold onto that is really important that we can offer society, being able to talk about things in a nuanced way but also have a reason for why we believe what we believe and to have it all connected together and coherent. I think that's also really useful. Again, things both of you said reminded me that, I was just reading something ready for, my friend and I are going to be doing some informal sessions in our parish talking to people about faith. I was just reading something to help me prepare for that. And there was a little bit in there that said that approaching people who are wondering about faith, it's important to recognise that God is already working in their life. And it's not about me coming in offloading everything I know because they need to know all the things I know because I've got this. God has already brought them to wherever they're at on their journey and if they're standing before me now there might be something for me to do there. It's about understanding where God is in their life and that's part of where they're at, isn't it, that we were talking about earlier? Where God is in their life and what it is they're reflecting on and trying to make sense of and trying to feed something into there that might be useful. What each of you has said has reinforced that for me in different ways. 

One of the other things as well that we found because it's so easy to be on the treadmill day by day, week by week, without actually stopping and thinking actually, Where are we at? And I think for us as Christians, we can go through the motions without stopping and really listening to God, thinking, Where is the Lord taking us?  What does He want us to do? And like we've said, truth has been so important for so many people on their journey to finding the Lord, responding to the Lord's call. But I also think as well, community. So many people are really searching for that community and I'd say we're very blessed in our parish. There's a real sense of community of, hopefully that cup of tea afterwards, conversations that you have after Mass or before. That's where we’re the body of Christ just as much as sacramentally. 

Just picking up on something you said, when somebody comes to us, God's already been at work in them. Something that I try and be conscious of is recognising that the purpose of that conversation isn't to win the argument, it's to win the soul. It's about recognising that actually God wants to use us in that situation, that it is God that is doing the work. We are the ones being used. There's a beautiful story about St. Bernadette that I absolutely love where there's one shop in Lourdes that has the authority to sell these little pin badges of a broom. It recognises something that St. Bernadette said when they asked her if on her death she would like to be buried back in Lourdes. And she said, Oh no, bury me with my sisters here in Nevers because I always felt like I was a little broom who you take out of the corner and you used to do a piece of work and then you put them back there. My work in Lourdes is done. My work now is with my sisters here in Nevers and I want to be buried here with them. With a friend of mine, when we started to lead those Lourdes Pilgrimages, we always bought those pin badges for our helpers to remind them of the importance of humility and service. That it's the Lord's work you're doing. That you're allowing him to use you in that way and that the humility in that is so important. I think of it so often when I start, you know, feeling a bit puffed-up about myself, none of it is of me. 

Other thing that sort of comes to mind, our Bishop, Bishop David, when we've had days of mission prayer and he says, his invitation for all of us is to be missionary disciples and to be bold. And that the Church is not on a mission. Her very nature is missionary. We don't leave it to the priests. We don't leave it to the bishop. We're all called as Christians to be missionary disciples and it might be by not swearing in the workplace. It might be just showing a little act of love towards somebody that is being a missionary disciple. Again, it's being authentic to what is the Lord calling each of us to do. 

That's really interesting, isn't it, as well, when you say that, actually? Because when you think about all the years we've been doing RCIA, and we always say, What's brought you to this place? And this isn't any disrespect, this isn't a criticism in any way, but it's very rare that somebody says, I met this fantastic priest. It's so much more often someone much closer to home.  It's so much more often, my friend at work talking to me about her life, or my girlfriend was telling me about her faith and it really resonated with me. For us all as laypeople to just consider how people encounter us and are we giving a good authentic witness?  I know for sure there's a lot for me to do in that as far as that's concerned. 

For all of us. Thanks so much for spending some time. It's been really interesting hearing about evangelisation. I feel it's been a bit of a - all our thoughts muddled in together - but that must be how the Holy Spirit wanted it today.

For sure. Absolutely.

Saying what we want to say through stories that get bit jumbled up together is just as helpful as laying it all out. Thanks ever so much for spending the time today. Martyn and Fiona, this has been great. 

Bless you. Thank you. Thanks, Theresa

Thanks so much for joining me on All Kinds of Catholic this time.  I hope today's conversation has resonated with you.  A new episode is released each Wednesday.  Follow All Kinds of Catholic on the usual podcast platforms, rate and review to help others find it. And follow our X/Twitter and Facebook accounts  @kindsofCatholic. You can comment on episodes and be part of the dialogue there.  You can also text me if you're listening to the podcast on your phone, although I won't be able to reply to those texts. Until the next time.