86: Where to see the Gospel in action

Episode 86 Fr John shares how working as a prison chaplain 'can be emotionally draining, but at the same time, very uplifting,' because, he says, we meet Jesus in the men and women who are in prison. For Fr John, the best way to pray is like St Therese of Lisieux, to 'talk to God in my own words.' Hear why the Road to Emmaus gospel story is important for him too.

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Transcript

You're listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro.  My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of the ways we're living our faith today.  Pope Leo, quoting St Augustine, reminds us, Let us live well and the times will be good.  We are the times.  I hope you feel encouraged and affirmed and sometimes challenged as I am in these conversations.  Join our podcast community, get news and background information about the conversations and share your thoughts if you want to. You can get the newsletter and each episode straight to your inbox by going to allkindsofcatholic.substack.com and clicking on subscribe. It's free. That web address is in the episode notes too, and I'd love you to draw closer to our community. Thank you. 

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Listeners, thanks for tuning in today. I'm delighted to be joined by Father John. And we're going to talk a little bit about working in prisons along the way, but Father John, welcome to the podcast. 

Thank you very much. 

I thought we might start first with just thinking about - I’m guessing you've always been a Catholic. Were you born into a Catholic family? 

Yeah.  Yeah, my dad was from Derry, Londonderry. A very committed kind of a Catholic. And then my mum, she's from Doncaster. She was Catholic herself as well, so it was very much born into a Catholic family.  

Made your First Communion? Did you go to Catholic schools? Were you an altar boy? 

I was, yeah. I went to a Church of England school first because there wasn't a Catholic school near us. And then I went to Catholic schools. Then I was an altar boy, altar server, when I got to the age of about 10, something like that.

Did you feel that your faith was important to you as a child? Was it something already that you felt was important that you could have some kind of relationship with God or was it something that, everybody did that, so you were doing that too? 

It was a kind of -  it's very difficult to put my finger on why I did it - but it was an example of my parents, with going to church. But then I used to go off my own kind of decision then during the week. I became an altar server and I served Mass during the week as well. So it was just something that I did, but at the same time, it was very important to me. So I wasn't just doing it. And at a childlike level like that,11 years old, a child doesn't think in those profound ways, but I know that the seed was sown and it was only later on that it began to develop and it was while I was, from about the age of 10, that was when I thought about the priesthood. Through the example of the parish priest, the priest Father John Shaw, this was in Leicester. So it's through his example that I thought, Well, maybe I wouldn't mind doing that.

So you became a diocesan priest and then you mentioned before we started recording that your father had been in the prison service, but that's not really how you ended up becoming a prison chaplain. How did that happen? 

Yeah, I mean, when I was growing up, we used to live on - I’ve lived in a Borstal and various other prisons throughout the country. And that's what he did. You know, he came from Derry and he had to come over here to find work. So we moved around quite a bit but the faith was still there. 

Just let's pause there a moment. That is really interesting to me just because my father was a social worker and we lived in children's homes a little bit, that he was managing. And so I didn't know when I was a child, you know, but looking back now, those children and young people that were there, I can see a terrible aloneness in them. Looking back now that I wasn't particularly aware of when I was a child. I didn't realise the sort of difference between us living with our family in the same premises and them being  so separated from their families. But I can see it now. I can see this deep sadness in those young people. And I don't think I'm imagining it. I think I can really see it now that I’m looking back on it. I wonder how you found being there as a child and young person?

Well, as a child, it's funny looking back, but my brother and I, there's five of us, but there were only two of us at that stage. And we used to think that life on the Borstal was a great life. All we saw was the Borstal boys - as they used to call them then - all we saw them was playing football. We used to join them. There was a film night on a Saturday and if the film was suitable for children, we used to join them as well. But it did seem a great life. So that my brother when he was asked what did he want to do when he grew up, he said, I want to be a Borstal boy. 

They just look like they're playing with their friends, don't they? 

Yeah. But it's only later, now. I got into the prison service, not because of my dad having worked there, but because I was in a parish in Leicester. The Young Offenders’ prison was there, the Glen Parva. And so I started saying Mass in there. And it was only then that I got to know that, you know, underneath this kind of camaraderie with the other prisoners, there was a real sadness and a real covering up the hurt that they'd all experienced throughout their lives, right from childhood. Maybe going into care, running away from care homes, having to go back, going to foster families. There's no roots at all and so much so that for a lot of prisoners, their roots are in the prison. It's their home.  One of them described it to me as being like home. But there is this underlying sadness that we weren't aware of as children. 

You've explained that much better than I did Father John, that's right. So now that you have been working as a prison chaplain for a long time, can you see something in your personality or in the way you experience your faith that makes you well suited for that? Or do you think you've become suited to it over time?  

I got into the prison work by accident, then I moved to Nottingham and now I go into four prisons, three men's prisons and one women's prison. But I was a bit apprehensive about going in. I mean, I've been a university chaplain, a prison chaplain, a hospital chaplain. And I remember before I started, somebody said to me, Well, don't be apprehensive because you just do what you do in other places. And that is you walk with the men. They've already been judged by the courts, so you don't judge them. I've always remembered that, it's to walk with them. To see them as broken human beings, but like myself, because we're all broken human beings. And it's about, I can't judge them in any way, I just have to walk with them. And maybe I know a bit more about spirituality than they do. So that’s where I can help. But I also learn from them as well.

That's interesting because that's brought me to something I was going to ask you about. I was thinking to myself, preparing for today, that I often talk to guests about service, you know, that our faith leads us to serve others. And lots of guests give wonderful examples of service of others as part of their faith. You know, and we are called to visit people in prison. But I think there's something, I just was reading something recently about  solidarity and about how service is not just transactional for Christians, you know, there is also something - Jesus is calling us, maybe when He's saying, I was in prison  and you visited me. He's saying, This is where Jesus is. Actually, if you're not visiting people in prison, you're not doing something with the homeless, if you're not there with them, you're not where Jesus is. And so, as you can see, I'm still muddling through it a bit, but I think there's something more than just service of others. I think you're kind of capturing there, that the walking alongside, the being there with them and getting something back as well, that it's not just me doing something for you in your need, is what you're experiencing. 

But I think as well, I mean Jesus is in prison, but we all can't go into prisons. It's about us Christians working together to do what God has called us to do. So I feel that God has called me to go and work in a prison. But he's not called me to work in other areas where he has called others to do that. So it's about working together and seeing Jesus wherever we are in the people that we work with. And the thing about prison work and working with prisoners is that, you know, Jesus is with people of all, who’ve committed all crimes. So he doesn't say, I am with the prisoners who've committed the more respectable kind of crimes. You know, I'm with, I’m there in the person who's committed very serious crimes and who are judged by society because of the crime, not because of the person or the background or their history.  And so it's to be Jesus in the lives of these men and women. So I can't judge. I just have to be like Jesus in their lives. I think that's what they respond to. As a chaplaincy team, there is a team of chaplains in each prison from all the major denominations. And if there isn’t a faith person for a particular prisoner, then we can get them in. So, you know, their spiritual needs are catered for. It's very much like being Jesus for them. And one of the things that I feel good about is when the prisoners can come and say, While we're here, while we're in the chaplaincy, we don't feel like we're in prison. Because they're treated with respect no matter what the crime is. In fact, most of the prisoners, we don't know what the crime is because we don't need to know. We just have to be Jesus in the lives of that person. 

And you mentioned getting something back yourself from encountering, walking alongside people in prison. So can you put some words around that? What kind of thing do you feel you get back from that? 

A lot of it is, if I say or if we say, Jesus is in prison, it's no wonder we get something from it because we are meeting Jesus in the prisoners. I remember reading something, it was a book about prison ministry called Summons to Serve by Monsignor Richard Atherton.  And he said that when he was given the job of being a prison chaplain, he thought he was a knight in shining armour. He went in and, I'm going to take Christ into this prison. And he said he got a real shock because he found Christ was already there. So I think in a strange kind of a way, just being with the prisoners, it’s a fulfilling kind of an experience. And to see the gospel in action, you know, where it's hard to see it in a parish church, but in a prison, you can see it. You talk about love and forgiveness and hope and the gospel. And you can see on the faces the difference that that makes. So I find that I get a lot from that. I also think sometimes if I'd had experiences that the prisoners have had, would I still have faith or would I still think God is part of my life? Talking to them and being with them, you get this sense that despite all the hardship and the struggle, that the faith is very important to them.

Listeners, I probably said this before that I used to work with this prison charity Pact and I somehow was not prepared for the fact that meeting prisoners, people inside, they absolutely are living the gospel and they don't have much scope because their lives are quite small in a way, you know, they're not going very far, they're meeting the same people every day, but huge concern for each other and  kindness towards each other and  looking out for each other. I mean, I felt a bit like the Monsignor you mentioned who wrote the book, felt very much put in my place that I thought I knew better. And actually I learned a lot from just encountering people in those situations.  

For me anyway, there's a lot of nice people in prison. You know, they've made a bad choice.  For whatever reason, they make a bad choice. But there's a lot of goodness there. Now I was talking to a school chaplain this morning, in fact, and we'd got them to write Christmas cards to the prisoners. And she said they had to vet some of the cards because some of the things the children were saying was, I know you're not a very nice person, but Happy Christmas. 

Oh dear. 

And so, you know, you could cringe. And all of us felt, Thank goodness we vetoed those. But that's the feeling that people have though, that anybody in prison is bad. When they're not, there's a lot of goodness in the prisoners who are in prison. 

I remember another prison chaplain saying one time that somebody said to her, How can you work with those people inside? And she said, What do mean those people? They're just like the people you meet in the town. It's just another part of our community. It's us. 

It is, yeah. So I mean, I really do enjoy working in prisons. When people say it must be hard - and it is challenging. It can be emotionally draining, but at the same time, very uplifting. So I do enjoy the years I've been working in prisons. 

I often try to get a little flavour of people's faith Father John. I wonder whether you might talk about what are the prayers that you return to or little bits of scripture that speak to you that you kind of hang on to through these years, or practices that help you? 

Yeah, I mean, I'm a big fan of St. Therese of Lisieux. And I remember her talking in her book, Story of a Soul, about the way she prays. And she says, I can't make up these fantastic prayers that very holy people make up. I see books with these prayers in and I just can't copy them. So she says, I just talk to God in my own words and He understands me.  And that’s the approach I have really. You know, I think the best kind of prayer is in our own words and from our own hearts.  The set prayers are great if we are, on those days where we just can't string sentences together when it comes to prayer. But for me, it's talking to God in my own words. I think the piece of scripture that helped me would be the ones, you know, Come to me all you who labour and are overburdened and I will give you rest. You know, the scripture quotes that come to us when we are struggling and when we are finding it hard. I think the one for me as well, the road to Emmaus story. When the disciples are talking to each other and sharing their pain and Jesus comes while they're doing that and explains things to them. I like to think that as well, you know, if I’m with somebody, you know, sharing pain, my own pain and their pain, that Jesus comes and we experience Jesus in that way as well. So that's a big favourite of mine.

Thank you. So just as we draw to the end of the conversation, Father John, I know that prison chaplains that I've met along the way are always hoping more people will come and help and support the work in prisons and support people in prison in some way. What might you say to people who might be listening and wondering if this is something the Lord's calling them to? 

Yeah, the way I've found things is that, you know, the prison service is very keen on making links with the community. They look for people to be official prison visitors who come and visit prisoners who get no visitors and there are lots of them around. Some men, they don't want their families coming to them and seeing them in that particular place.  So official prison visitors would be a good place to start work. But from the chaplaincy point of view, a good place to get involved is, and to find out what the possibilities are, would be to contact the prison chaplain. And there is a chaplaincy in every prison so it would be possible to contact chaplaincy. Talk to somebody there and say, I'm interested. From our own point of view we have volunteers coming in on a Thursday when we do a religious education class and they help just talking to the prisoners and supporting us in what we do. So we do the education bit and the discussion, but they're there to just support us and make a cup of tea, coffee, whatever it might be, as well as to talk to the prisoners. Same with Mass on a Saturday or any of the other services with any other denomination as well. It's the same thing. That they would come in and would make conversation with the prisoners - and they love people coming in because somebody has taken an interest in them. They're very appreciative of people giving up their time. But the way to do that is through the chaplaincy. In my own diocese, you know, the Bishop is very keen on spreading the word about the need and the value of volunteers coming in. That is something anyone can do too, who are called to do that. What we would normally suggest is that you would come into the prison a couple of times, see if you like it and then you can take it further. It's not for everybody and the only way of finding out if it's for you is by actually going in and experiencing the prison environment and take it from there. 

Can you think of things people have said to you, that are volunteers in prison, that they have got from that that might encourage people listening?  How do people find it who do volunteer with chaplaincy? 

I just find it's not so much words, it's by their actions. So if somebody comes in, they want to keep coming in. I think the surprise they get as well is that, you know, these are just ordinary men and women who've made the wrong choice, who find it difficult in prison. It's not an environment any of us would want to be in or ever think we will ever be there. But it's a case of there but for the grace of God go I. But volunteers, they talk about how ordinary the people are, how easy to talk to. Prisoners are always willing to talk. They talk quite easily about their lives and talk about anything, football, weather. 

Telly.

Television, books, all of these things.  It is something, I know that I love going in and I think the volunteers, they do too. It's something about Jesus is there. It's a very fulfilling kind of ministry as a priest in my case, but also for people who come in to volunteer their time as well. And also it’s open-ended in that, you know, come in if you want to. There's no contract, you don't have to come in. It's just as and when you feel you can come in, come in then. 

Yeah, because the chaplaincy team are working there already, aren't they? 

Yeah, and you just come and support us and help us in the work that we do. 

Thank you, Father John. 

Other things like practical help is good. You know, various church communities do help us, such as, you know, at Christmas time, trying to make it more like Christmas for them. So donations are made of chocolates, mince pies, cakes. It just gives them something different for Christmas. But throughout the year as well, there's donations of tea, coffee, milk powder, all of these things are very welcome. Biscuits, and everything can be done linking up with the chaplaincy. And if a person or if a community wants to get involved, don't particularly want to come in, but they can support the work of the chaplaincy and prisoners by helping in those practical ways as well. 

Okay. Thank you. That's good. It's been really lovely to talk to you today, Father John. I do appreciate you giving up some time when you are, like all our priests, really busy. So thank you so much. I think there's lots there that listeners can reflect on. You've got a really nice, quiet, thoughtful manner, which I think is just nice at this time of year for people that have had a really busy few weeks to just quietly think over what you're saying and see what connects with how they live their faith too. So, thank you very much for your time. 

Thank you, Theresa, very much. 

Thanks so much for joining me on All Kinds of Catholic this time.  I hope today's conversation has resonated with you.  A new episode is released each Wednesday and you can follow All Kinds of Catholic on the usual podcast platforms. Rate and review to help others find it. You can also follow us on social media @kindsofCatholic and remember if you connect with us on Substack you can comment on episodes and share your thoughts and be part of the dialogue there.  Until the next time.