100: Broken, with no compass and no map, but I found answers in the Church

Episode 100 Graham describes how times of serious mental illness and a loss of his sense of self nevertheless helped him to discover his spiritual part that ‘I had been ignoring.’ After much questioning, he found a home in the Catholic Church. Graham shares what it means to be made in the image and likeness of God when mental health is fragile, the overlap he sees between mystical experience and psychiatric episodes, the writings of St John of the Cross, and the ‘excuses and distractions’ that sometimes keep him from prayer.

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Transcript

You're listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro.  My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of the ways we're living our faith today.  Pope Leo, quoting St Augustine, reminds us, Let us live well and the times will be good.  We are the times.  I hope you feel encouraged and affirmed and sometimes challenged as I am in these conversations.  Join our podcast community, get news and background information about the conversations and share your thoughts if you want to. You can get the newsletter and each episode straight to your inbox by going to allkindsofcatholic.substack.com and clicking on subscribe. It's free. That web address is in the episode notes too and I'd love you to draw closer to our community. Thank you.

Theresa:

Listeners, just before we get into this week’s conversation, I just want to flag up in case you didn’t notice, this is the 100th episode of the All Kinds of Catholic podcast. It’s an amazing milestone to reach. I’d like to thank all of those people who’ve been guests on the podcast so far and shared something of their life and their faith and themselves with us. It’s been wonderful. There is lots more to come of course. And I’d like to thank everyone that’s listening. Thank you so much. I know that these conversations are making a difference to you. I know that you really are encouraged and affirmed and sometimes challenged by these conversations and that’s wonderful. And for now let’s get on with this week’s conversation with Graham. 

Listeners, thanks for joining the episode today. I'm joined by Graham. We're going to have a really interesting conversation. We've got some mental ill health to talk about and for listeners who like to hear from someone who became a Catholic later, we've had a real run of people in this situation and Graham is another person who has not always been a Catholic. So welcome, Graham.

Graham:

Thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Theresa:

Maybe you'd tell us, Graham, then something about your life when you weren't a Catholic. Tell us about how you grew up and your family — did they have any faith?

Graham:

I was brought up to find my own way religiously. My parents felt it was very important that we were not influenced by their own personal beliefs. So they had a belief, but it wasn't practising. It was influenced more by Protestantism. I was left to kind of go my own way, but I attended a school where we had a chapel, which I really preferred to go to instead of going to the school assembly — it was much more comfortable. So it's a terrible reason. It was Church of England. But it meant that I went several times a week to that environment. For my secondary school years, I was exposed to that setting, but I didn't really believe in any of the things that were going on. It was a purely selfish, comfortable option, which is terrible. But I think it did influence me ultimately in a way that I just didn't appreciate or realise when I was young.

So when I left school, I had decided that you couldn't really know if there was a God or not, that it was beyond our capacity to tell. So I wasn't anti-religion, but I just thought there's no point putting any effort into trying to discover something about God. And just carried on my merry way, trying to have as happy a life as I could.

Theresa:

Just before we move on from your school days, I was wondering whether there was something about the chapel — was it quiet? Was that what maybe drew you there? Was there a chance to just reflect a little bit, you know, in your own way while you're sitting there?

Graham:

So that was part of it, but I think mainly it was a comfort thing in terms of you could sit down for most of the service instead of having to stand up in the assembly. And I found the assemblies quite stressful being in that big group. So yeah, there was part of the attraction of that ritual, I guess, of just going and being quiet and not having to jostle and worry about what's going on in a big group.

Theresa:

Okay. So you went to university. Was everything good for a while?

Graham:

Yeah. So everything at university was fantastic. I was very fortunate with the course I chose — forensic analytical chemistry. It was really interesting and I made some really good friends and had a great time, but it was completely secular. There was no religious aspect to it. And then I volunteered and did some conservation work in Africa for six months, which was fantastic. And that really shifted my worldview, I guess, in terms of just how happy people seem to be with so little. Got a lot from that.

And then I went back to university. So I did a PhD in environmental analytical chemistry, which again, I had a fantastic time. And then I got a job in Oxfordshire, which I've really enjoyed — using some of the science in a practical way to try and help people. So that was fantastic. I had this very secular worldview until basically the point when I didn't behave very well. I guess I felt a sense of hopelessness and real despair. And in that moment of sort of surrendering and giving up really, I had a deep sense of peace come over me.

It was like I became an animal. It's like I became a bear. I was just flooded with this peace that I've never experienced before. It just sort of woke me up to the notion that I had a spiritual part of myself that I'd been ignoring. It made me think, if there is a spiritual part to myself, then there must be a sort of home for that spirituality — and if there's a home for it, there almost certainly must be a God that looks after that spiritual part of myself. So I was very excited.

Theresa:

Let's just jump in there, Graham. Often people struggle with putting words around these kinds of experiences. It is hard but feeling like a bear — that's really interesting. Are you able to say anything else about that? It's descriptive on the one hand, and on the other hand, I'm not sure exactly what you mean.

Graham:

It's very hard to describe, but I guess in hindsight, the way I look at it now with a bit more of an exploration of the Catholic teachings and the Church, I do think that God kind of reached out to me at the level I was at, which was a very animal level. It was very explicit at the time. I felt I am a bear, but there was this huge sense of peace. And then I started to Google 'spiritual guide and bear' and got some really interesting information from Native American spirituality and all this stuff. And it just really resonated for me and it just really clicked and I got really excited and animated.

So I think this bear experience — again in hindsight, after what happened in the following years — was what's called a hypermanic episode. So this is an elevated mood, sort of precursor to more serious mental health conditions. But I didn't recognise that at the time. I just thought I'd had this wonderful experience with God. Just had a sense of clarity and joy for life. Even though I behaved quite badly in relation to some other people, I felt I could fix things and things would be okay, would be fine in the end. And so I spent several months on this sort of high level of mood. Just didn't realise it was.

I did have a moment where I thought, this is too good a feeling and maybe I need to be a bit cautious because I've got a family history of mental health problems as well — bipolar. I still didn't quite twig that this was quite so closely related to that condition.

Theresa:

I suppose if you're feeling great, it's hard to think there's something wrong, isn't it?

Graham:

Yeah, absolutely. I felt on top of the world. I didn't appreciate that you could feel too good and that can be a very bad thing.

Yeah, so I spent quite a few years having a very good time and exploring different spiritual practices and near where I live, there's a place run by the Brahma Kumaris called the World Spiritual University, which really appealed to me. And they had a lot of very practical ways of teaching you how to use spiritual tools to improve how you manage your anger, how to deal with addiction. I found them really beneficial. Spent quite a few years exploring it and then found out where they had originated from and started to think maybe this wasn't as solid an underpinning as I'd hoped. Even though it had lots of very practical tools and tips that were clearly very useful in the real world as well. Yeah, I became a bit sceptical of it, I guess.

Theresa:

That's interesting that it took a while. Useful things seemed to be there for you, but actually over time you began to see some gaps. That is interesting because I think we can feel that people can make decisions quickly, can't they? That you find something that you think is right, you think this is the answer and you can become very connected to one particular way of looking at the world and feel that you've found what you need.

Graham:

Absolutely, definitely. And I had a sense of that for a short period that I'd found what I needed and I was going in the right direction. I think when it dawned on me that there wasn't a stronger foundation to some of these practices and beliefs, I asked my friend who seemed to be much more wise than me if he'd be my spiritual director. I recognised that there was a God. There was a lot of wisdom within different spiritual practices, but I was completely lost as to how to sort out what was true and reliable and what was fantasy and wishful thinking. And so he's been a fantastic influence on me ever since he agreed to help me find my way.

Theresa:

And what's his background, Graham? Does he follow a particular spirituality or is he just somebody who is cautious about what's out there?

Graham:

Yeah, so we met professionally through work actually, so he's got a scientific background. It became apparent that he's Catholic. That was a big influence on me, but I would say he never even encouraged me to become a Catholic. It was something that I came to through conversations with him and asking him questions about different things.

I had about four years from that first experience where I was excited about this new spiritual world that had opened up to me. Lots of things happened, but then I had a bit of a repeat of the bear-type experience, but this time it was quite different. I was under a lot of stress and strain with work commitments and outside of work as well. I got home and I just felt completely broken — like I felt I'd given everything and there was nothing left in the tank. I'd made a few little mistakes about stuff, it was just too much.

So I went to bed feeling just exhausted — not hopelessness this time, but just brokenness. Those were my exact words. I feel broken. And then I woke up the next morning and I just felt great. I felt so good. What was I worried about? The world is a wonderful place. And yeah, I had a really nice day, a good day where I was thoroughly alive.

Again, I'd say it was hypermania in hindsight, but at the time I just thought I'd got a hold of myself, got things in perspective. And then the next day my mood continued to elevate this time and it got ridiculously high. I ended up believing I was God in fact. That's not a good place to be at all, although it feels amazing at the time.

Theresa:

Was it like before in the sense that you felt great and so you weren't aware that this actually is not great? While you were feeling like you were on top of the world, did you just feel like this is amazing; look at me?

Graham:

Yeah, well, I thought this is amazing. I think I had this thought that I could fix everyone's mental health problems and that I could see how to fix things. I had this sense of power, clarity of thought, and I was very excited and animated. I was writing and writing and writing, trying to get all these thoughts down on paper. And it was just terrifying for those around me to witness that level of excitement. Normally I'm fairly calm and measured sort of person. To have that was scary. So I ended up in hospital, unfortunately. My mania got worse and worse. I had all sorts of terrible visions and delusions. You know, I lost my sense of self, which was upsetting for everyone around me especially. It was pretty traumatic for me as well.

I've been told various things I did when I was in hospital that were not good at all. I've got some snippets of memories about that time, but even though I was in a really bad state for most of it, I had some insight and I had some memory of what was going on. And there were a few things that struck me as being valuable for when I was better and out of hospital, that related to my relationship to God.

I had this experience that was very potent, that I was on my way to heaven and it was all good and everything was going wonderfully and then at the last minute it all changed to hell. And then the reverse happened. I had this experience that I was on my way to hell and it all reversed and I ended up in heaven. It struck me that whilst I was very ill at the time having that experience, there was a truth to it in that I was spiritually — I had no compass, I had no map. I was just wandering a bit aimlessly. It struck me that I needed some help with those elements to guide me. I took some insights, I would say, from that very bad period of being ill.

Unfortunately, a couple of years later, I had another period of mania. This time when I was ill, a memorable experience pointed quite directly to Christ and His crucifixion, in fact. So I thought after that, maybe Christianity is worth exploring?

I started to go to my local Church of England church in the village. I started to inquire about the basis of Christianity and where it came from and what its underpinning beliefs are. And I enjoyed going to church, but it didn't quite feel right for me. So I decided to hunt around, try and find the place that was more in tune with me, that met my needs. And the first place I went to was the Catholic Church.

So I went in on a Sunday. The next Tuesday, they were starting the RCIA programme. And I just thought, well, that's handy. I can find out a bit more about what it means to be a Catholic, what it involves. I think that was in February. And then by April, I decided that it was the right place for me to be. And so I joined the Catholic Church just a few months after walking into the nearest Catholic church to me.

Theresa:

Hooray! I'm glad. Listeners will be glad too, Graham. Can we just unpick a little bit? I think there's something really interesting about you knowing that something was a good insight, even while you were so ill and there was a lot of strangeness and things that maybe didn't make sense. Still, you were able to find something there that you thought was useful for when you were better — about realising that you didn't know what you were doing, that you weren't connected with your spiritual self. I think that's really interesting that you were nevertheless able to discern something out of that time. I'm highlighting it just wondering if listeners who've had mental health experiences may well be able to relate to that and find some resonance.

It's interesting too that it was this particular Catholic church that just felt like the right place after spending some time looking at other things, joining other communities. It's always interesting to hear about people that find the Catholic Church seems to fit for them. I don't know if there's anything in particular you could point to that just made that feel like the right place.

Graham:

It's going to sound probably a bit silly and a bit trite almost, but some seeds were planted because I read some books by Paulo Coelho, which I really enjoyed, which I really love. This author is amazing. His books are fantastic, but all about love. I wanted to find out what he believed and what his spiritual tradition was. And I found out he was a Catholic. I remember I was disappointed at the time because of my ignorance of what the Catholic Church really stands for and is really about. I just had absorbed a lot of the things that you see in the popular press. And I just uncritically accepted all of the superficial things that are said about the church. But I think it had planted a seed.

And then when I was looking, I'd had lots of discussions with my spiritual director by the time I joined the Catholic Church, which just highlighted a lot of the rational side of Catholicism and the reasons to believe in the existence of God — so not just my personal experiences and feelings about it, which were pretty strong. And that made me think, you know, I really need to take this seriously because it's not just my own personal belief that I've happened to have these experiences and fallen into a faith. There are lots of reasons, there's lots of evidence, there's lots of rationality around it that means it should be taken seriously and not just taken on an emotional level.

Theresa:

I like that, Graham, thank you. I think guests have sometimes said, and it's what I feel is right myself, I've always been a Catholic. Even after all these years and thinking about lots of different things and having lots of different experiences, there is something very coherent about the Catholic faith, you know — it hangs together and it makes sense and this gives you this sense of reliable truth here. That maybe you had found when you were investigating that other kind of spirituality, it didn't seem to hang together necessarily after a bit of time. And so I think that is something that other guests have also found to be what is reassuring about feeling that there is something to be taken seriously in the Catholic Church — that you can dig a bit at things and actually you can find reasons why these things are so.

Graham:

Exactly. 

Theresa:

I must just say before we move on there — I'm impressed at your spiritual director. I don't know whether other listeners are thinking, I just feel like if somebody was a friend of mine who had a lot of questions and a lot of complex experiences, I would feel unnerved at being the person who was trying to help answer those questions and help them find a way through. But your friend must have done a very good job.

Graham:

Yes, he certainly does a very good job indeed. So yeah, just feel it's divine providence really working. I think you're right, that coherence is just phenomenal and it's so powerful. I think when you've had the experiences that I've had with breaking from physical reality in such a severe way, it makes you question the nature of reality itself at a much deeper level. And I kind of wonder — what does it mean to be insane? What does it mean to lose your sanity? And I think the Church has a lot of answers to those questions, which has given me a lot of comfort and, like you say, it's that coherence and that story and that narrative that helps ground me in fact, and stops me from flying off in all these fantasies and all these different directions.

Theresa:

Yes, I was wondering whether — I don't know whether your mental health is really stable now or whether there are still ups and downs — but I'm wondering whether having become a Catholic, whether that makes a difference now to how you manage your mental health? Has it made you more well or is that just too easy a thing to hope for?

Graham:

I would love to be able to say that it's made me well and kept me well, but I don't think so. I joined the Church in April of that year and I was back in hospital in the summer of that year. And then I was back in hospital again two years later. I've definitely had my ups and downs — well, my ups, unfortunately. But I do think it helps to have that grounding and that coherence, that truth to help guide me if things are becoming a bit wobbly. But I'm on medication. They've changed my medication since I was last in hospital, which seems to give me the stability that I need. So I haven't been in hospital for six years now, which is great. I certainly think that a lot of the things that come with being a member of the church help with that stability.

Theresa:

And then I was wondering, Graham — before we met today, I was thinking about what you think about being made in the image of God. I think sometimes we want to think that because we're made in the image of God, we have some idea of physical and mental health perfection — that we must be made properly and that maybe then if you're unwell or you have a physical disability, how do you connect with being made in the image of God? For me, I think it's because there are different kinds of perfection and we mustn't just put a kind of human value on that. But I'm wondering what you think as somebody who has experience of your mental health not being everything you might hope for all the time. How do you think of yourself as being made in the image of God? Did God make a mistake?

Graham:

No, not at all. No, it's a great question. I love the notion that we're made in the image and likeness of God. I think it's so fundamental to what the West takes for granted in terms of why you should treat people with dignity and respect.

It relates to my whole questioning of what reality is. When I became unwell, I had these religious experiences and it's really common for people with mental health problems to have religious experiences. And I just remember thinking at the time, how can people from disparate backgrounds, different upbringings have similar experiences and then there be no relationship that holds those together? There must be some truth that connects it.

I think of my illness as being made worse by how I maybe respond to God's promptings and how maybe I fight and rebel against them and how maybe that then exaggerates what could be a very positive experience. It also goes back to what you said about me pulling insights from my periods of illness. So even though they were terrible episodes, there was still some value to be gleaned from that. And I think that was only God that could really reveal those to me and then give me something to work with. I'm not sure if that answers your question really, or if I've gone off on a bit of a tangent.

Theresa:

No, I think it's good to just — there isn't a neat answer, is there? It's good to just think about it and I'm grateful for what you've added there to what I've been thinking about. And I also think just from what you were just saying — the idea that God was working in you even when you were so ill just reminds us, I just felt very moved for a moment, it reminds us that even in these really desperate times we're not abandoned. God is there working in us and sometimes it is those desperate times where He finally finds a little chink where He can reach somebody who has perhaps been resisting and rebelling and all of those things.

Graham:

Absolutely. I think we're made in God's image and likeness. I'm very interested in some of the writings of the saints who have had mystical experiences because I see some overlap in mental health conditions and the sorts of experiences that they've written about. I'm a particular fan of St John of the Cross, his poetry especially, and then his descriptions of what those poems mean. I find them particularly powerful and it just seems to me that when you are fighting against God, you're rebelling against that offer of union with Him, which I think is very hard to get your head around — that that's what's on offer — because it just seems so fantastical to think that you could be in communion with God.

Theresa:

Yeah, I think it is pretty fantastical. Hard to believe while we try and believe it.

Graham:

Having had that experience where I felt I was God and was clearly deluded in a very bad way, and then to find out that Christianity is saying you can be in union with God and that's what He actually wants for everyone — it's quite remarkable and quite challenging really.

It's maybe worth just mentioning that I've got a tremendous support network, both in terms of family and friends who provide a lot of stability as well. So there are people that check in with me and, you know, my family especially have been very understanding and supportive when I've been in crisis times. I certainly don't think I would have found a path to navigate through things without all of that support and help, so I'm very grateful to all of those people.

Theresa:

So you've got people that support you — are there some practices around your faith that support you? Are there some prayers that you actually keep coming back to that mean something to you or little pieces of scripture? 

Graham:

Church groups are amazing things that are available to link in with. 

I've recently tried to use — I've got a little prayer book from St Benedict which has just got some very short prayers for the mornings. There's a cycle over two weeks. I really struggle with prayer, to be honest. I recognise that it's the most important thing to develop and grow and keep learning about, but it's a struggle for me to really put the time aside. I'm trying to use an app that plays the Divine Office as well, which I find quite nice when I make the time for it, but just lots of excuses and distractions.

I love St John's Gospel, I think, probably the most. I love — you know, 'In the beginning was the Word' — the prologue to St John's Gospel sums up so much in such a short few lines. That's probably my favourite. And for me personally, it's the clearest bit that says, you know, Jesus was God, came to save us. He's done all that work for us and it's just up to us now whether we can accept or refuse to accept that offer.

Theresa:

I remember studying John's Gospel years ago. I agree there's a lot packed into that prologue. 'In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God.' Very succinct, isn't it?

Graham:

It is, but so much there.

Theresa:

I'm grateful that you mentioned the Divine Office because I just did a little Substack post — people might remember it from the last couple of weeks — about the Divine Office and how so many Catholics perhaps don't even know that its riches are there if we can get over our, as you say, excuses and the hundred and one things we have to do before joining in the prayer of the church, but it is there for us.

Is there something, if people are listening and they've got friends and family with mental ill health, is there something that you can share that's helpful that people might just bear in mind?

Graham:

My message would be to never underestimate the power of listening — and not listening to solve their problems or fix them, but just to try and get alongside them and understand as best you can where they are at that time. There's a great power of listening just to accompany somebody that can actually change someone's life.

Theresa:

That is fantastic, Graham. A good note to draw our conversation to a close with. Thanks so much for taking the time to talk and share something of your journey to becoming a Catholic and living with mental ill health at times. And it's wonderful to hear the things that have supported you and it's wonderful to hear you have some practical suggestion for us to take away as well. I've really enjoyed talking today and I've really enjoyed just unpicking some of those things that are hard to put into words and just see what we can say about those experiences. So thank you for struggling through that part with me. I've really appreciated that and I think listeners will too.

Graham:

Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. It's always really useful, I think, to talk through these things and be reminded of some of the difficulties and delights along the way. Thank you very much.

Thanks so much for joining me on All Kinds of Catholic this time. I hope today's conversation has resonated with you.  A new episode is released each Wednesday and you can follow All Kinds of Catholic on the usual podcast platforms.  Rate and review to help others find it. You can also follow us on social media @KindsofCatholic. And remember if you connect with us on Substack, you can comment on episodes and share your thoughts and be part of the dialogue there.  Until the next time.